still shaking my head on this one

Mercman572 · #1 06-02-2005, 01:46 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

MP1 ($26.6)
Hero ($32.95)
MP3 ($18.45)
CO ($23.9)
Button ($9.65)
SB ($25.35)
BB ($25)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($39.75)
UTG+2 ($35.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, UTG+2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, 2 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.5, UTG+2 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $1.50, UTG+2 calls $1.50.

Turn: ($7.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets $1, UTG+2 calls $1, Hero raises to $10, UTG+1 calls $9, UTG+2 calls $9.

River: ($37.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $37.75

previously UTG+2 had shown balls and bad judgement when he bluffed me out of a flush with top pair. my literal fist hand i had 57 clubs for a flopped flush. i bet the pot, villain called. i bet the pot on the next club and villain triples my bet, making it 12 to go. i fold he shows a pair of kings no clubs. anyway this hand after UTG+1's turn bet i put him on a straight draw trying to slow down my betting. admittedly i have no idea what UTG+2 may have. but when the river comes checked to me that i am not getting called except by a better hand at this point. should i have bet? what range should i put villains on?results in an hour or so

Little Fishy · #2 06-02-2005, 01:51 PM

I say bet the river, you'll get called by two pair or top pair enough to make it worthwhile

Zag · #3 06-02-2005, 01:56 PM

Bet more on the flop. After you call UTG+1's bet, the pot is $3.25, and you raised only $1.50. Against two opponents, you are giving KJ or J9 pots odds (never mind implied odds) to call you. You should have raised to $3.50 or $4.00

Villain's turn bet is pretty clearly just a blocking bet (that is, you know this once he merely calls and doesn't reraise). Therefore, he is on a draw or has something he is not that proud of and would like to show down cheaply. BTW, nice, pot-sized turn bet.

On the river, now that you know the above, you have to consider if the draw might have been the flush and he just made it. I could believe Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or something like that, from either of your opponents. So I don't hate the check behind. On the other hand, I believe in paying off runner-runner draws -- they usually don't have it and, if they do, it encourages them to draw at them more often. I would bet out, here. Since the rest of your stack is still not pot-sized, I would either push (most often) or (very rarely) make a teaser bet of, say, $5.00 which might make an opponent think I am willing to be pushed off.

amoeba · #4 06-02-2005, 01:59 PM

at a higher limit table, I would bet this river everytime as nobody will check the river flush and would want to get some value.

at lower limits though, donks sometimes try to get fancy so I think check behind is ok.

Mercman572 · #5 06-02-2005, 02:24 PM

RESULTS:
UTG+1 3 of a kind 10's [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
UTG+2 J8 hearts... damn donkey

amoeba · #6 06-02-2005, 04:51 PM

so you didn't lose you stack from set over set. you should be happy.

Mercman572 · #7 06-02-2005, 09:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet more on the flop. After you call UTG+1's bet, the pot is $3.25, and you raised only $1.50. Against two opponents, you are giving KJ or J9 pots odds (never mind implied odds) to call you. You should have raised to $3.50 or $4.00

Villain's turn bet is pretty clearly just a blocking bet (that is, you know this once he merely calls and doesn't reraise). Therefore, he is on a draw or has something he is not that proud of and would like to show down cheaply. BTW, nice, pot-sized turn bet.

On the river, now that you know the above, you have to consider if the draw might have been the flush and he just made it. I could believe Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or something like that, from either of your opponents. So I don't hate the check behind. On the other hand, I believe in paying off runner-runner draws -- they usually don't have it and, if they do, it encourages them to draw at them more often. I would bet out, here. Since the rest of your stack is still not pot-sized, I would either push (most often) or (very rarely) make a teaser bet of, say, $5.00 which might make an opponent think I am willing to be pushed off.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH? wouldn't the odds of an OESD be around 27% and the pot odds of about 50% still?

Zag · #8 06-03-2005, 08:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet more on the flop. After you call UTG+1's bet, the pot is $3.25, and you raised only $1.50. Against two opponents, you are giving KJ or J9 pots odds (never mind implied odds) to call you. You should have raised to $3.50 or $4.00

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH? wouldn't the odds of an OESD be around 27% and the pot odds of about 50% still?

[/ QUOTE ]
Feel free to pare down a quote so it is clear what you are responding to. I assume this was the correct issue.

Hero raised $1.50, making the pot $4.75. Against one opponent, they are getting 4.75-to-1.5 or 3.2-to-1 payoff on their draw (which is, assuming 8 outs, 39-to-8 or 4.88-to-1). So you are correct, they would not have pots odds to draw. However, against two opponents, the payoff would be 6.25-1.5 or 4.17-to-1. OK, they don't QUITE have pots odds, but since there are clearly some implied odds available, you certainly don't want to make it this easy for opponents to call.