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View Poll Results: are you the crazy lane switcher who lane changes constantly to shed 30 seconds on his arrival time?
no im not, those people are dumb 80 70.80%
yes, driving like a lunatic 33 29.20%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 12-21-2005, 12:58 PM
obsidian obsidian is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: IL
Posts: 343
Default Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use

You could have made this poll much simpler with the following options:

No
Yes, and I am gay
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  #12  
Old 12-21-2005, 12:59 PM
KSOT KSOT is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 323
Default Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use

I still want to know how you datamine an UNobserved hand. as far as I know, you've always had to be observing a table to collect the data. Not sitting there watching it, but you have to have the table open.
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  #13  
Old 12-21-2005, 01:15 PM
obsidian obsidian is offline
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Location: IL
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Default Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use

You can buy/share databases.
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  #14  
Old 12-21-2005, 06:53 PM
OrianasDaad OrianasDaad is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 476
Default Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use

Only three minutes wasted replying and then wiping out my post. I'm getting better at this.

What's the over/under for worthless threads in the zoo for next year?
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  #15  
Old 12-21-2005, 07:33 PM
RikaKazak RikaKazak is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: betting $1,000 a flop on red/black while drunk :D
Posts: 4,129
Default Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use

[ QUOTE ]
There's a huge difference between datamining and collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!! I datamine all the time, but I never collude nor share my data with anyone else.
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  #16  
Old 12-21-2005, 07:33 PM
RikaKazak RikaKazak is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: betting $1,000 a flop on red/black while drunk :D
Posts: 4,129
Default Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use

[ QUOTE ]
i dont see the option for:

"Bitter because I can't afford/can't figure out how to use PokerTracker"

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, so funny and SOOOOO TRUE
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  #17  
Old 12-22-2005, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use

Greetings,

Thanks for the feedback and participation in the poll. I just wanted to address a few points and clarify my position on this issue. First of all, I am not opposed in way to using Pokertracker or similar programs that help you manage and interpet data from hands you participated in. For example, lets say you multi-table and simultaneously play 12 hands. My personal viewpoint is that it's perfectly acceptable to import the data from all these hands.

One poster says it's impossible to datamine unobserved hands. I think he basically claimed "datamining unobserved hands" was self-contradictory. Well, I guess that's how you define 'observe.' He thinks simply opening up the table constitutes observation? I think this isn't "observation" because you could simply open 15 tables, walk away (maybe take a nap or go shopping) and still get other people's data. Futhermore, as another poster pointed out, many players aren't even opening up tables. There is an active market for the sale or trade of hand histories.

Next, let me briefly address the criticism of my survey. I agree that my survey isn't scientifically valid or reliable. For one thing, any survey conducted here would be a 'straw poll' that would not be reflective of the general poker community. Next, somebody said I have an obvious 'bias.' I would not deny this. Futhermore, it might appear as though my survey questions are leading. While I didn't intend this, in retrospect it appears I could have simply made the options 'Yes' or 'No.'

Lastly, I think my opinion on data-mining is accurately reflected by Pokerstar's Terms and Service. This is taken verbatim from section 4.4: PokerStars defines an "Unfair Advantage" as a User accessing or compiling information on other players beyond that which the User has personally observed through the User's own game play. We encourage you to read our Prohibited Programs FAQ.

To reiterate, I would like to thank everybody for their feedback and comments!

JeffreyREBT "Wherein I don't promise to make you rich without trying, or even trying very hard; I do promise to say things that will make you FEEL rich."
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  #18  
Old 12-23-2005, 12:27 AM
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use

Terribly biased poll, as others have pointed out.

I don't think third any third party software can be considered unethical unless it facilities collusion or involves hacking a sites servers or something similar. That being said, there's nothing wrong with terminating player accounts for using software that violates TOS, either. It's really up to the site to decide where to draw the line, whether that is realtime heads up displays, datamining, bots, whatever.

Is it worth losing high volume accounts over datamining observed hands? I'd guess not, considering people can almost as easily trade databases of hand histories to accomplish the same thing. My experience after many years of playing / developing MUD's / MMORG's is that it's best to let minor stuff slide, and crack down hard on the important things - collusion and bots in the case of poker.

Senni
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  #19  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:25 AM
MexKrax MexKrax is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 24
Default Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use

I think you are misinterpreting PokerStars TOS. I know someone here emailed PS CS awhile ago and asked about this issue and posted the email he recieved here which was very detailed and specific. The gist of it was that datamining is ok, sharing your data with anyone else is not ok. I don't know if Stars policy on this has changed, but I haven't heard anything about it.
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