2 questions

[PokerBob]

do you hate preflop? what's your flop play?

Canterbury 15/30 8 handed
There are 2 BB's posted in this hand cuz someone left. UTG folds, UTG+1 opens. This means very little. He is a fish (he's a dealer at canterbury) and his range is HUGE here. Folds to me on the CO with T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I call. Super fishy button comes along. One blind folds, one calls. The one who calls plays pretty well and is very honest.

Flop 4 ways (9SB): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Blind bets, UTG+1 raises, I..........

[hobbsmann]

Preflop is probably too loose, but T9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is just so pretty. As for the flop this looks like a super easy 3-bet given all of your equity in this pot. Plus you might get a free card on the turn.

[goofball]

I don't hate preflop but I do think it's a mistake. Even if his opening range is huge you're likely behind it. Depending on waht kind of fish he is 3betting might be better, but I don't like coldcalling much at all. The flop play is an easy 3bet. They both like their hands and aren't going anywhere, just jam it.

I think that your description of this player being a 'fish' really doens't give proper anaylisis to his/her play. Even players that can be labeled 'fish' have different tendancies. With about 15 outs you will improve your hand a lil over 50% of the time. Depending on how the players play I want to extract my money out of the turn. If three betting here on the flop means that they will always check to me on the turn I won't three bet it on the flop. The reason being you are drawing to a baby flush either player can easily be betting a bigger flush draw. A bad scenario (depending on how they play) is for you to three bet, have them both smooth call and then when the turn hits just check in front of you forcing you to bet and get check raised. Then your going to be confused as to where your at in the hand and be giving up money in the long run. But this depends on how they play, I will more often then not smooth call the flop, if a straight card hits I'll raise the turn, and if a diamond comes depending on the action ahead of me i'll smooth call or raise. (Remember try to extract the money out of a hand on the turn if possible) -Andrew

I would just like to make the point that anybody who thinks the only play is to three bet the flop have all made the assumption that they must hit either the flush or straight to win. Once you three bet the turn you can only make it two more BBs the rest of the way if a bad queen or PP wants to call you down. A smooth call on the flop and a raise on the turn gives you a much better shot and taking down the pot without improving. The preflop raiser could very easily have missed with AK and be raising for a free card himself, which of course you do not let him have and if the blind is a good player as Bob suggests then he will let a bad to mediocre queen go on the turn if it is two bets back to him.

I think Muse is all over this one to gain the most value and provide you with more than one way to win the pot.

wally

P.S. I know this game at Canterbury and the turn raise has worked for me on countless occasions to win pots from people who are making plays themselves, whether or not I have anything.

The problem with everyone elses anaylisis thus far is that no one really is making warrants to their claims. Like goofball saying he 'doesn't like cold calling much at all' if your going to propose a different way of playing the hand providing some reasonable idea of why you make that play would help please.... (Free speech is overrated) [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]... -ANdrew

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with everyone elses anaylisis thus far is that no one really is making warrants to their claims. Like goofball saying he 'doesn't like cold calling much at all' if your going to propose a different way of playing the hand providing some reasonable idea of why you make that play would help please.... (Free speech is overrated) [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]... -ANdrew

[/ QUOTE ]

Coldcalling isn't good because we don't have an equity edge, we're behind Q2o here, and we're going to have to just fold a lot of flops. If we coldcall it will be difficult to play the hand profitably, folding is better than coldcalling and against a competent player I would fold. Against the wrong kind of fish I would fold as well.

3betting against a specific player is good. It gives us position AND momentum, likely drives everyone else out of the pot, and frequently puts our opponent in a tough spot, out of position with a marginal hand and no momentum. 3betting allows us to win unimproved a lot, and that makes the difference for thsi hand.

[bakku]

what everyone said pf. and omg this is like the easiest flop 3-bet evaaaaar!

Yea if you just decide to be reckless and not try to maximize value. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] The point is here that you have a lot of ways to improve but if you just keep raising the flop you may mis valuable bets on the turn as well as, I think the better play here (depending on how they play) I'll raise the turn even if it's a blank and it looks like no one was helped by the card such as a nine [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. And in this way if Axxx of diamonds is in the pot I have a chance if we both miss our diamonds on the river to make a bad queen fold or a middle pp such as tens or jacks or ace king. One of the other benefits of this play is if I do get called down taking control of the hand on the turn with a raise and get called on the river bluffing, the action I will recieve from these players from here on out on the turn will be ridiculous (usually), next time i'll make a similar turn raise play with the nut straight or whatever and I will pick up a lot more bets when they are drawing dead than i should. Obviously depending on how these people play. I think the turn is the way to go, unless these people keep betting no matter what with wahtever hands they have or are trying represent, and even then the better play might be to just wait till u hit a card and raise if they play that bad. -Andrew

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
Yea if you just decide to be reckless and not try to maximize value. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] The point is here that you have a lot of ways to improve but if you just keep raising the flop you may mis valuable bets on the turn as well as, I think the better play here (depending on how they play) I'll raise the turn even if it's a blank and it looks like no one was helped by the card such as a nine [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. And in this way if Axxx of diamonds is in the pot I have a chance if we both miss our diamonds on the river to make a bad queen fold or a middle pp such as tens or jacks or ace king. One of the other benefits of this play is if I do get called down taking control of the hand on the turn with a raise and get called on the river bluffing, the action I will recieve from these players from here on out on the turn will be ridiculous (usually), next time i'll make a similar turn raise play with the nut straight or whatever and I will pick up a lot more bets when they are drawing dead than i should. Obviously depending on how these people play. I think the turn is the way to go, unless these people keep betting no matter what with wahtever hands they have or are trying represent, and even then the better play might be to just wait till u hit a card and raise if they play that bad. -Andrew

[/ QUOTE ]

all i read was the first sentence. which is wrong.