(11) A play I dont see very often

[golfcchs]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter

SB (t745)
BB (t800)
UTG (t457)
UTG+1 (t2490)
MP1 (t985)
MP2 (t500)
MP3 (t820)
Hero (t650)
Button (t553)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls t30, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero raises all in, SB fold, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t135

What do you think about this push? If all fold I increas my stack by 20% and UTG+1 and MP1 have been limping allot even for a 11. Feedback greatly appriciated.

[lastchance]

I generally don't do this. It's huge +EV to limp here, for one, and opponents call too much.

[bjb23]

i think you would need to have an amazing read here to pull this off. you would have to know that the limpers were not only limping a lot but also folding to pf raises. furthermore, you are risking running into a "monster" here (when i say "monster" i mean something as low as 88 or 99 that many people of at the 11s would even cold call your push with). not to mention a real monster could be under the bed.

overall, fe(barring a hellmuthian read *sarcasm*) is not good; pot overlay is decent; hand value is below decent; you are not desperate by any means.

if you cant find a better spot than this then id suggest you look harder.

bj

In Volume Two of HoH, he mentions this play from the BB. He says you should only do it if you've seen someone limp and then fold to a big raise. I've done this on UB twice before with random crap. I really didn't want to be called. One time I got everyone else to fold, the other time I had one limper calling the raise. I C/B the flop and he folded.

[Skipbidder]

I'm not a big fan.
I'd be interested in knowing more about how UTG+1 got a hold of those chips and what you know about him so far. You say that he limps alot. Have you seen him limp with good hands?

As I recall, people at this buyin will often call 5-6xBB raises in the situation you described above (with rather mundane holdings). I wonder how often they will call 18xBB raises. Will you be happy when someone calls and shows you suited overs? Obviously you will be a lot happier than if they show you an overpair, but I still don't know that you'll like it.

[KingDan]

If the bb were 50, I like it.

As it is I prefer a limp.

[golfcchs]

You have a good point about being called by the monster 77 or 88, but these are the only hands I am really scared of. Sure there is a small chance of AA or KK, but most other hands that I am an underdog to would have raised. As far as being called by 2 overs I dont really mind this at all because I will still be a small favorite. This is where I might be wrong, but I dont mind loosing a coin flip here because if a win I will have allot more FE going into level 4 and up, and if I loose so what I problily would have busted OTM if I just had limped with the 66. What I am trying to get at here is that I hate going into level 4 with 500 to 600 chips. I just dont think you get enough chances to steal in the sb and button when their are 8 or 9 people in at level 4. I have been experimenting with this play recently and as far as I can tell it has only helped my ROI. I usually do this at level 3, but in this situation I felt I had allot of FE because of my read on the first 2 limpers.

[bjb23]

ok so if you get a call from a range of TT-55,AJs-A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,AJo-A5o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
(these may be loose, but it is a range of hands that you would likely see IF the limper calls the push, and in my experience at the 11s these calls do happen) your 66 is a 52% favorite.

this estimate also assumes that no one limped with a big pair.

granted you have a 135 chip overlay. but even if you have a stellar read, there are still 3 people left to act behind you who could wake up with a "monster" (in the 11s = AA-77 not to mention all the unpaired high cards)

i dont think this play is THAT horrible, just not ideal. limping would definitely be my preferred option.

of course, if this were level three this would be an easy push especially because of your read.

as far as the fundamental question of FE near the bubble, well, that is, of course, a matter of personal style. but there is just so much bubbleEV (ie. pushEV) in the 11s-33s that it is not worth the volatility, in my opinion, to try a move like this. i do believe this move borders a mild condition of fps for this level.

those are all the random thoughts i could come up with for now. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[TheNoodleMan]

I hate it. You have a cheap chance to hit a set in what is in all likelyhood going to be a 6-way pot and instead you do this? Yuck!

[mlagoo]

On level 3, or level 4, maybe... at this level, it's just really unnecessary. Your edge in the first two levels is going to be postflop, maximizing your payoff when you hit a set, when you hit TPTK, whatever. When you are doing this you are basically giving any donk a chance to make a "great call" with 77 or AJ and be in terrible shape. Not to mention the fact that 100 or 150 extra chips really isn't all that important (don't get me wrong, it helps, but this is just way too high-risk for too low of a return).