Utterly confused with KK

Emmitt2222 · #1 03-02-2005, 04:02 AM

This is one of the most confusing hands I have played in awhile because the bets kept coming from different places, what the heck is happening? Please tell me all the ways in which I butchered this. BB, UTG and MP1 are all pretty loose with UTG and MP1 being particularly so. BB is the most agressive around 3.5, UTG is around 2 and MP1 is just a fish

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, Button folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

I felt this was similar to an example in SSHE where you have a pair of Q's and an ace falls. I was raising to protect my hand in a pretty large pot. UTG was pretty loose and agressive so I wasnt necesarrily going to give him credit for the ace.

Turn: (10.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

While this card appeared scary at first, it actually is probably better because it slightly lessens the chance that someone has an ace. BB is even more agressive postflop than UTG and I don't think he would slowplay the ace on the flop, everyone else just calls so I call because its a pretty good pot and my hand could still be best. I thought he may have had a flushdraw or something but the other two called. Anyone find a raise or a fold?

River: (14.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

So a 9 falls and both of the first people check so I'm almost positive they dont have the ace, but MP1 is pretty passive and now he bets. I'm so confused but the pot is big and I think I should call down with the other two loose callers behind me. The only thing that MP1 could have is some random two pair maybe and he doesnt realize the aces counterfit him because there are no real draws. I almost raised but didn't, anyone see a raise or a fold here?

I really am just lost on this whole hand [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

eric5148 · #2 03-02-2005, 04:12 AM

Yeah, this hand makes you wanna stab your eyeballs with a fork.

I think it's ok, given the reads.

kev0ut · #3 03-02-2005, 11:44 AM

I would fold the flop with an ace out there against 5 opponents. I just don't see any chance of taking this down unless you pull a K

rmarotti · #4 03-02-2005, 02:29 PM

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

QTip · #5 03-02-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

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LOL

BBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

chief444 · #6 03-02-2005, 11:51 AM

I've been letting hands like these go more often early on. It's an absolutely drawless, A-high board with 5 opponents. You're bet into on the flop and there's a call as well as a couple left to act after you.

Emmitt2222 · #7 03-02-2005, 12:48 PM

Although the example is a bit different because it is A high and opponents may be more apt to hang onto any A and in this hand there is a caller inbetween, I still believe it fits pretty well into the example on page 280, #15 in SSHE where you have a pair of queens and a K falls. Ed says that he may slightly consider folding without the backdoor flush, but in this senario the pot is even slightly bigger and I have good position. He would suggest folding especially against a straightfoward opponent but this is not one. What it says in the book:
"Raise, it is a little unatural to bet a king [in this case an A] into a from the big blind [UTG] into four players, including a preflop raiser. Most players would check: Passive players might check and call for fear you have ace-king, and aggressive players might check, planning to check-raise."
I thought if there was ever a time for that play it was here, aside from missing the backdoor flush, this is a very very similar situation.

chief444 · #8 03-02-2005, 12:53 PM

There's a big difference between QQ on a K-high board and KK on an A-high, drawless board. I'd be much more inclined in general to continue on with the QQ.

Hellmouth · #9 03-02-2005, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Although the example is a bit different because it is A high and opponents may be more apt to hang onto any A and in this hand there is a caller inbetween, I still believe it fits pretty well into the example on page 280, #15 in SSHE where you have a pair of queens and a K falls. Ed says that he may slightly consider folding without the backdoor flush, but in this senario the pot is even slightly bigger and I have good position. He would suggest folding especially against a straightfoward opponent but this is not one. What it says in the book:
"Raise, it is a little unatural to bet a king [in this case an A] into a from the big blind [UTG] into four players, including a preflop raiser. Most players would check: Passive players might check and call for fear you have ace-king, and aggressive players might check, planning to check-raise."
I thought if there was ever a time for that play it was here, aside from missing the backdoor flush, this is a very very similar situation.

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The difference is that most people will play Axo and many less play Kxo. Because so many people will play "any Ace will do" you are much more likely to be beat here.

However after deciding to continue I think your play was ok. I might have also raised where you suggested. Probably a big looser though. Im assuming the results were bad?

Greg

MyssGuy · #10 03-02-2005, 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The difference is that most people will play Axo and many less play Kxo. Because so many people will play "any Ace will do" you are much more likely to be beat here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Given this, the number of people in the hand and no backdoor draws, I'd let it go on the turn.