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#32
12-06-2005, 11:38 PM
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Re: Is having the initiative a fundamental advantage?
[ QUOTE ]
Is having a good table image a fundamental advantage? Perhaps the most compelling argument against table image being important in and of itself is this: any player could defeat this advantage by simply ignoring everyone's playing tendencies! [/ QUOTE ] I think you are using this as a counter-example to prove that the initiative is an advantage. I might argue that all you're proving is that "having a good table image" is not a fundamental advantage either. Having a good table image is only useful if you can use it to convince your opponents to make exploitable mistakes, convincing them, for example, that you would never bluff in a particular spot even though you should. If they just ignore your weak-tight image and play as though you will bluff correctly, then your "table image advantage" has been negated. -Eric 
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#33
12-06-2005, 11:42 PM
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Re: Is having the initiative a fundamental advantage?
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a person on the button always slowplays a 9? that i have to disagree entirely, i know many who will fastplay anything, and im one of them [/ QUOTE ] The example was for a particular hypothetical player to show how it's hand ranges, and not the initiative, that matter. Of course it's the case that some people play trips fast. -Eric
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#34
12-06-2005, 11:49 PM
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Re: Is having the initiative a fundamental advantage?
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If I open raise on the button preflop and get called by the BB, both our ranges are wide, but mine is more likely to include QQ+ than the BB's. [/ QUOTE ] It's this kind of thing that makes it an advantage. But what if the BB decides to not always 3-bet his big hands preflop? Then the BB's hand range, even after just calling, can still include a number of big hands. He could even do this often enough that it is he that would be more justified in making a "continuation bet" at the flop. If playing this way causes your opponent with a weaker hand range to consistently get stubborn and pay off a bunch of bets, all the better. See how recognizing that the initiative may not actually be a fundamental advantage changes our strategy? Now, if you are the big blind, you know you can take steps to ensure that the pfr does not gain any advantage by having the initiative. You know this is possible, you just have to figure out what those steps are. That would be the next conversation after this thread... -Eric
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#35
12-08-2005, 04:15 AM
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Re: Is having the initiative a fundamental advantage?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Is having a good table image a fundamental advantage? Perhaps the most compelling argument against table image being important in and of itself is this: any player could defeat this advantage by simply ignoring everyone's playing tendencies! [/ QUOTE ] I think you are using this as a counter-example to prove that the initiative is an advantage. I might argue that all you're proving is that "having a good table image" is not a fundamental advantage either. Having a good table image is only useful if you can use it to convince your opponents to make exploitable mistakes, convincing them, for example, that you would never bluff in a particular spot even though you should. If they just ignore your weak-tight image and play as though you will bluff correctly, then your "table image advantage" has been negated. -Eric [/ QUOTE ] my original intent was to post it as a counter-example, but as i was writing it out, i realized exactly what you said. i posted it anyway though cuz it made me think about your argument differently, which originally struck me as completely wrong. but anyway, my take on it is that you're correct, initiative isn't really a fundamental advantage. but initiative and hand ranges are not independent. initiative implies a certain hand range, which is where the advantage comes from.
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#36
12-08-2005, 04:19 AM
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Re: Is having the initiative a fundamental advantage?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The button checks and raises [/ QUOTE ] FLOOR! [/ QUOTE ] LOL . . .NH sir
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#37
12-08-2005, 05:41 PM
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Re: Is having the initiative a fundamental advantage?
[ QUOTE ]
but anyway, my take on it is that you're correct, initiative isn't really a fundamental advantage. but initiative and hand ranges are not independent. initiative implies a certain hand range, which is where the advantage comes from. [/ QUOTE ] Absolutely right. The thing I'm driving at is that they are correlated, but they are subtly different, and it's huge to recognize this difference. In most games, initiative is an inherent advantage because opponents play too tight and too passive against the hand range of the guy with the initiative. Understanding this lets you do many things: - stop playing that way when you do not have the initiative - recognize when players are not giving you this edge so you can slow down on the most marginal bets and raises which are now losing - recognize to what degree players ARE giving you this edge so you can speed up on some close decisions and make more money -Eric
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