Hastert Plays Politics With Holidays

[DVaut1]

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You're being more than a little disengenious by claiming that this is the "best" that American Christians can point to in the way of "persecution" (probably better called discrimination).

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How, specifically, are Christian's discriminated against in this country?

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Have you read Persecution? I've only skimmed a little once when I was in a book store.

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Like you, I've only read parts. Most of his complaints were your run of the mill right-wing complaints: pro-lifers are opposed by liberals, popular TV has lots of gays but not very many Christians, feminists don't like Christian fundamentalism -- and a bevy of silly nonsense issues like the subject of the OP.

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But some of the examples (assuming their true) rise above this Christmasgate, wouldn't you agree?

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I agree some of what Limbaugh writes about constitute more 'serious' debates than how we refer to trees; but Limbaugh's complaints frequently point to legitimiate political discourse. He had a rather lengthy rant about how pro-life justices are strongley opposed by feminist groups like NARAL and the like. Is it oppressive that feminists and pro-choice advocates don't like fundamentalist Christians? Do their disagreements constitute persecution? It's what the rest of us call legitimate debate and pluralism.

In other words, what Limbaugh frequently cites in his examples of 'bias against Christians' is this: People don't agree with conservative Christians, and the government/media/popular entertainment brokers don't cater to their every desire. That doesn't constitute descrimination.

When gay people complain about being persecuted, they refer to how gay kids are beat to death, then tied to a car and dragged down the street.

When Christians complain about being persecuted, they're talking about how their local school board didn't let Junior's class sing "Noel".

I realize it irks convervative Christians that Bravo has Queer Eye for the Straight Guy marathons but not one hour devoted to Pastor's Eye for the Sinful Guy , but welcome to the world of profit-driven television and popular culture. Limbaugh should take his complaints to Adam Smith -- but then again, as we all know, Limbaugh's praying at Smith's altar, too -- so he uses liberals a scape-goat when capitalism and the market fail to kowtow to Christians.

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The title is sensational, meant to sell books.

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Like, of course, almost every single other right-wing complaint about Christians being discriminated against. Almost uniformely sensationalized and exaggerated to the point where there are many people here in this forum trying to subtly defend that Christians are indeed treated unfairly by the society at large -- when in fact, their examples frequently center around trivial nonsense of the most inconsequential nature.

The kicker is, of course, that Christians don't hesitate to remind you that they're a super-majority in this country, so when challenged about whether or not we should put some 2 ton Ten Commandment statue in front of a courthouse, they're won't think twice about reminding they're opponents that "Hey, America is a Christian nation -- remember, 90% of Americans are god-fearing Christians -- so let's keep the statue there, because it's what the majority of us want" etc. etc.

So the right-wing narrative goes as follows: Society-at-large frequently discriminates against Christians in the most offensive of ways -- a society that is made up of an uber-majority of Christians. I can't make heads or tails of this contradictory nonsense, and I don't think many can, either.

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I don't know of any American Christians claiming persecution on the same level of some abroad or of the past, so your argument appears to be a strawman.


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So long as we agree that the complaints of the conservative Christian crowd are over-sensationalized and deliberately exaggerated for the purposes of profit and/or political demagoguery -- and we all realize it -- then fine, I'm constructing a strawman. But since it seems like there's plenty of people who truly and sincerely believe Christians are persecuted in America, I don't think this is much of a strawman.

[Jedster]

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Yes. the Govt is endorsing religion and paying for the power to keep it lit.


Who said the word holiday offended them? you better boycott faux news.


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Wow I wish I had grabbed the original images. They changed it! It used to say Holiday. But this is even funnier. What the hell is a chanukah collection? LOL. Call it Christmas. Call it holidays. But never call stocking stuffers part of chanukah. Puhlease! These guys are just nutso! They really really don't want to talk about the war is what's going on. Hastert is worried about not being speaker anymore, and you know he'd resign rather than be minority leader.

[etgryphon]

I think I am in agreement with Dvaut1 for the most part. Though I think that there are clear examples of Christian persecution in this country.

Example would be a man named Randy Alcorn. He is a pastor who was part of a peaceful protest outside an abortion clinic that was distributing information about alternatives to abortion. Planned Parenthood didn't like this so they started a campaign to charge him with Federal Racketeering Laws because they wanted to charge them with "extortion" of the abortion clinics. Several judges threw the case out of court and sometimes the PP Lawyers were threatened with fines for bring frivolous lawsuits. But, they succeeded in finding one judge who convicted him on federal racketeering laws even though it was a terrible distortion of the law and a violation or Mr. Alcorn's constitutional rights.

That is a very real example. But, I do agree that most people cry foul when things are changed from "Christmas" to "Holiday" I have no problem with the government changing the names of things from Christmas to some inoucuous term. Preventing freedom of assembly on public property because of religious reasons is a bit much.

Your drum beat that there is an ubermajority of Christian and therefore can't be persecuted or mistreated is a bit disengenous. There is such a thing as the tyrany of the minority which is what we have a lot of today. The majority of Iraqi citizens when Shia and they were prosecuted by the Minority Sunnis. Majorty is no lock on persecution.

-Gryph

[DVaut1]

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I think I am in agreement with Dvaut1 for the most part. Though I think that there are clear examples of Christian persecution in this country.

Example would be a man named Randy Alcorn. He is a pastor who was part of a peaceful protest outside an abortion clinic that was distributing information about alternatives to abortion. Planned Parenthood didn't like this so they started a campaign to charge him with Federal Racketeering Laws because they wanted to charge them with "extortion" of the abortion clinics. Several judges threw the case out of court and sometimes the PP Lawyers were threatened with fines for bring frivolous lawsuits. But, they succeeded in finding one judge who convicted him on federal racketeering laws even though it was a terrible distortion of the law and a violation or Mr. Alcorn's constitutional rights.

That is a very real example. But, I do agree that most people cry foul when things are changed from "Christmas" to "Holiday" I have no problem with the government changing the names of things from Christmas to some inoucuous term. Preventing freedom of assembly on public property because of religious reasons is a bit much.

Your drum beat that there is an ubermajority of Christian and therefore can't be persecuted or mistreated is a bit disengenous. There is such a thing as the tyrany of the minority which is what we have a lot of today. The majority of Iraqi citizens when Shia and they were prosecuted by the Minority Sunnis. Majorty is no lock on persecution.

-Gryph

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I'm fully willing to concede that (IMO) that various courts have, in the past, ruled rather dubiously concerning the limitation of rights of protestors at abortion clinics -- something that I strongly disagree with (by that, I mean, I strongly disagree with the rulings that have limited the rights of peaceful protestors – although again, I’m not a lawyer, nor have I taken the time to review every single case; but from what I’ve read, and from what I do know, it seems as if protestors are ruled against unjustifiably -- and obviously, they're not universally ruled against in such cases, either).

And while I'm more than happy to concede that Christians have been on the losing (and again, wrong) end of such rulings, I don't think such things are tantamount to persecution -- unfortunately, sometimes unfair things will happen even in the most legitimate of states -- and yet I remain unconvinced that such things are tantamount to a systemic persecution of Christians. Randy Alcorn was given due-process, and had access to the best lawyers available, and was (as far as I know) received all the protections of the rule of law. Even if he didn’t, it almost certainly wasn’t because he was Christian – in the way that we think of Christians being mistreated and persecuted in other countries where they are actually persecuted (having to hide their faith, not given legal protections because they’re Christians, being tortured, imprisoned, or worse because, specifically, they’re practicing Christians, etc). In other words, I think it's a tough sell to say that the American justice system is purposefully abusing or mistreating Christians because they're Christian. Should Randy Alcorn have been placed in prison? IMO, of course not. Does this prove Christians are religiously persecuted? Of course not.

And while I do beat the drum that there are an uber-majority of Christians in this country (something the right wing is never hesitant to point out when convenient), it’s not merely because there are lots of Christians that prevents their mistreatment – it’s that Christians are in positions of great power in this country! …including, of course, this nation’s top executive, Commander-in-Chief, and Head of State. I find it hard (in fact, impossible) to believe that Christians are systemically treated unfairly in America when society’s power brokers (at least, in government) almost uniformly jump through hoops to prove what committed and pious Christians they are (including Democrats, mind you).

I understand, on some level, the way popular culture openly mocks Christians, doesn’t cater to their wishes, and why this is frustrating – and yet I don’t think this proves anything ‘systemic’, nor ‘oppressive’ other than profit driven entertainment (in other words, capitalism) holds no one in particularly high esteem if there’s profit to be had.

I can promise you that Bravo highlights the lifestyles of gays, and Comedy Central mocks the beliefs of Christians not because of some anti-Christian agenda, or because liberals-control-all-behind-the-scenes, but because it’s more profitable that way.

I think Christians have done a rather impressive job (in the past 5 years, lets say) of getting the market to respond to their entertainment and cultural wishes and desires, as I think we can objectively say that there’s been tremendous growth in the publication of pop-culture literature aimed directly at a Christian audience ( The Left Behind series, for instance), or movies like The Passion and Narnia that are marketed at/produced specifically for Christians.

But Christians ought to understand that, for many Americans (and many of those Americans I'm referring to are Christian, obviously) enjoy watching the hijinx of a gay guy and his female roomate (who sometimes engages in non-monogamous sexual intercourse with a variety of partners while giving no thought to marriage) on Will and Grace much more than they enjoy watching the 700 Club or 7th Heaven.

So many of the right-wingers who believe so strongly in the infallibility of the market should take solace in the fact that pop-culture is slowly realizing the power of the Christian dollar. But corollary to that, of course, is that when a profit driven culture leaves Christians bitter, confused, and frustrated, it’s not liberals or an anti-Christian agenda that’s causing your angst. Christians should take their complaints to Adam Smith for that one.

[etgryphon]

Again I agree with you as to the extent that what "most" Christians think is "persecution" is not in the very least. I also wish to condemn this because I think it cheapens the true sacrifices that people pay in countries like China, Pakistan, Egypt etc for their faith. That is true persecution. Not this tarted up version of being ridiculed in the MSM or entertainment.

I think the Randy Alcorn example is a clear example of the beginnings of persecution. And yes he does have the due process of law and a case much similar to his is going before the Supreme Court this year. Persecution doesn't have to be successful to be real.

I think the word for what Christians in American suffer from is "intolerance". I think Christians are victims of intolerance much more than persecution. There have been limits of speech and actions with Christian themes because that is not tolerated by the tyranny of the minority in the judicial process.


One can look to that fact that most of this intolerance comes from judical challenges rather than from the legislative or executive branch. It is much easier to have a judical fiat impose intolerance against christians than it is to vote it into place.

-Gryph

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I don't think such things are tantamount to persecution

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I'm just curious, do you believe that making men form naked pyramids and simulating sex acts in a prison is tantamount to torture?

It used to be called a Christmas tree, but it changed during the Clinton Admin.

BTW, I am getting a bit sick of the assault on Christians. It's so funny that Christians are associated with hatred and bigotry, yet the "religion of peace" (Islam) is pounded into our head with thoughts of tolerance. What a friggin' joke.

just my $.02