Hastert Plays Politics With Holidays

[JackWhite]

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I'm just elated to here that some of my dear friends on the right are finally ready to admit that Christians are an uber-majority in America and that, to claim they're somehow persecuted or oppressed just flies in the face of logic and rationality.

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Just because they are the majority, it doesn't mean they can't be mistreated. You have to admit, you can say things about Christians that you could never say about other groups. On this forum and other 2+2 forums, Christians are attacked on a daily basis. Substitute the word "Jew" and it would never be tolerated. Because Christians are the majority they can be ridiculed, while if a minority is ridiculed it is a horrible slander and a matter of intolerance and hatred.

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Yes. the Govt is endorsing religion and paying for the power to keep it lit.


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The Government does not endorse any one religion over another, nor does or should it endorse secularism or atheism over any religion. Almost all interpretations of the constitution give way for religious symbols being displayed on public property so long as all religions that wish to be included are. Again, get those facts straight.

[DVaut1]

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Just because they are the majority, it doesn't mean they can't be mistreated. You have to admit, you can say things about Christians that you could never say about other groups. On this forum and other 2+2 forums, Christians are attacked on a daily basis. Substitute the word "Jew" and it would never be tolerated. Because Christians are the majority they can be ridiculed, while if a minority is ridiculed it is a horrible slander and a matter of intolerance and hatred.

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1) Being ridiculed and criticized is different from being persecuted or oppressed. Christians aren't immune from being challenged or questioned. I don't think I've seen Christians being 'mistreated' here, but I'll gladly look at evidence if you have any. Note that none of the ongoing battle between Sklansky and theism counts in my book, as I think he's been more than legitimate in his criticims (just as Christians, and others, are more than legitimate to challenge DS). Being critical is not oppressing, nor is it persecuting.

2) I've seen posited (no less than 10 times, by numerous posters) that we should solve America's terrorism problem by bombing the Middle East into the Stone Age, which would kill as many (inherently violent and blood-thirsty) Muslims as possible. Should you not believe me, search the username "scalf". Other's have moderated themselves somewhat (and I use the word 'moderated' loosely), as they merely think we should bomb the Middle East, killing as few civilians as possible (but killing all the bad Muslims), then sending in the tanks to occupy the Middle East until they wise up and play nice. Imagine if someone said something similar about Christians! If American Christians can't stomach having their Christmas Trees called 'Holiday' Trees, I'm not sure how they'd react facing honest persecution, like some Christians certainly face in parts of the world today...and yes, I know just how oppressive having your trees re-named can be.

But American Christians frequently claim (at least the right-wing demagogues ones do, as David Limbaugh's book demonstrates) that they're being persecuted and oppressed because they can't erect 2 ton Ten Commandment statues in front of court houses, or because their holiday symbolism (is a Christmas Tree even religiously symbolic?) gets renamed when placed in a public area.

With that kind of persecution and oppression, how your typical conservative Christian windbag (Pat Robertson, James Dobson, David Limbaugh, etc.) sleeps at night is beyond me. /sarcasm

Long story short, I think this forum tolerates *much* (and rightfully so, IMO!) -- and I don't think Christians get it any worse here than Muslims or Jews or (fill in your other minority group here).

[JackWhite]

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Long story short, I think this forum tolerates *much* (and rightfully so, IMO!) -- and I don't think Christians get it any worse here than Muslims or Jews or (fill in your other minority group here).

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I will grant you that Muslims get a lot of criticism both here and elsewhere, mostly due to terrorism related things, but do you honestly think Jews get the same criticism as Christians. Even the slightest remark about Jews is strongly condemned in society.

As an example, The Passion of the Christ. Criticism of alleged anti-Jewish portrayals was a huge controversy, as you certainly remember. However, movies where Christians are portrayed negatively are released on a regular basis without the same concern over negative portrayals or stereotypes. Only on rare occasions do this get any coverage. Michael Medved wrote a book about this a few years ago.

[DVaut1]

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I will grant you that Muslims get a lot of criticism both here and elsewhere, mostly due to terrorism related things, but do you honestly think Jews get the same criticism as Christians. Even the slightest remark about Jews is strongly condemned in society.

As an example, The Passion of the Christ. Criticism of alleged anti-Jewish portrayals was a huge controversy, as you certainly remember. However, movies where Christians are portrayed negatively are released on a regular basis without the same concern over negative portrayals or stereotypes. Only on rare occasions do this get any coverage. Michael Medved wrote a book about this a few years ago.

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Just to reiterate – there are Christians today (and Jews and Muslims, and other such groups) who face actual persecution and oppression; Christians who have to hide their faith, and hide the fact they practice their faith, or face imprisonment, torture, punishment, or worse...

...and the best American Christians can do, to point to how ‘wronged’ they are, is that their secular tree symbols (which possess some relation to their religious holiday) get ‘renamed’ when placed in a public place (I put 'renamed' in quotes because, of course, it’s not as if you can’t call it a Christmas Tree if you like), or that some people poke fun at them in movies. And radio show hosts like The Brave Michael Medved somehow find the courage to come out of the shadows and bravely write books about such dangerous things (I mean, with the PC Police on the loose and all!)

Any American Christian who pretends, hints, or subtly implies that they're somehow persecuted or oppressed needs to do some serious introspection, and consider if their concerns aren't just a wee-bit exaggerated, overblown and hypocritical (given that they criticize 'PC libs' for being hyper-sensitive, only to whine incessently about silly things they feel wronged about, like how non-religiously-symbolic trees related to their holiday get named in ways that they don't like).

DVault, do you deny that there is a culture war taking place right now?

[BCPVP]

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and the best American Christians can do, to point to how ‘wronged’ they are, is that their secular tree symbols (which possess some relation to their religious holiday) get ‘renamed’ when placed in a public place (I put 'renamed' in quotes because, of course, it’s not as if you can’t call it a Christmas Tree if you like), or that some people poke fun at them in movies.

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You're being more than a little disengenious by claiming that this is the "best" that American Christians can point to in the way of "persecution" (probably better called discrimination). Have you read Persecution? I've only skimmed a little once when I was in a book store. But some of the examples (assuming their true) rise above this Christmasgate, wouldn't you agree? The title is sensational, meant to sell books. I don't know of any American Christians claiming persecution on the same level of some abroad or of the past, so your argument appears to be a strawman.

You're better than this, DVault1.

[Jedster]

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Fox News' flashes about the "War on Chirstmas",

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or the "FOX News Channel Holiday Ornament"



or more specifically, "The O'Reilly Factor Holiday Ornament"



I guess it really is fair and balanced. O'Reilly goes on a rant about the term "holiday" instead of Christmas, then sells "Holiday ornaments" on their website.

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ROFLMAO! LOLOLOLOMG!! What a post!

[DVaut1]

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DVault, do you deny that there is a culture war taking place right now?

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Yes, of course I deny it. 'Wars' being fought over where Ten Commandment statues go, what trees are called, what greeters say to you when you enter Macy's, and what your kids are allowed to sing in the school play aren't 'wars' at all. They're just petty [censored] people bicker about. I personally think Star Wars is more important than what we call a tree (but as BCPVP adroitly points out, manufacturing a culture war to sell books and grab headlines, such as calling your book 'Persecution', is alot more profitable -- and Star Wars is a profitable franchise).

[canis582]

"Manufacturing a war" beautiful! The right wingnuts have never done that before coughiraqcough.

You holy screamers out there think about that for a second. Even though you are the 'uber majority' people are telling you that you are persecuted because Walmart's employees say "happy holidays". Someone even said that Christians are attacked daily on this very board without typing anything to back it up!

Bill O'really is your shepard and you are his flock.

Here is a link for the free thinkers on the board.
http://www.ffrf.org/legal/