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#31
11-23-2005, 08:54 AM
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Re: thank you, price \'gougers\'
[ QUOTE ]
At a minimum I refer you to the ubiquitous clause that clearly states under which states laws that contract is being signed under. Hint there are other examples. All good contract negotiators understand this. [/ QUOTE ] Good contract negotiators realize that there are coercive forces, and they work within the constraints imposed by those forces. That doesn't legitimize the coercion anymore than giving your wallet to a guy that sticks a gun in your face legitimizes robbery. 
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#32
11-23-2005, 09:07 AM
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Re: thank you, price \'gougers\'
[ QUOTE ]
But the state-enforced "solutions" are usually worse. [/ QUOTE ] 'usually' I think your making some progress [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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#33
11-23-2005, 09:17 AM
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Re: thank you, price \'gougers\'
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pissed at MSFT for setting reverse price controls by pricing their xbox360 too low for the limited supply, thereby increasing demand and making it impossible for me to get one at a store with a return policy. actually, if you think about it, they are manipulating demand through pricing. i wonder if it's possible that other companies would do similar things. i'm not arguing for price controls mind you. i'm just saying even free markets can be imperfect. [/ QUOTE ] What's the problem? They have the xbox, they set the conditions under which they'll sell it (or the conditions under which they want their resellers to sell it under in order for them to distribute it to the reseller).
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#34
11-23-2005, 09:56 AM
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Re: thank you, price \'gougers\'
inheritance causes a lot of problems, and if the entire rest of humanity (assuming there is a propertied few) decides not to honour such rights, they simply don't exist. Property rights over youself are undeniable, property rights over anythign else is mearly a convention.
I really think that's impossible to deny. edit: and i would say the sort of property rights you posit that are derived from material + self-ownership are in actuality property that you can control THROUGH self-ownership and is the same right that revolutionaries excerise.
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#35
11-23-2005, 10:44 AM
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Re: thank you, price \'gougers\'
[ QUOTE ]
inheritance causes a lot of problems, and if the entire rest of humanity (assuming there is a propertied few) decides not to honour such rights, they simply don't exist. Property rights over youself are undeniable, property rights over anythign else is mearly a convention. [/ QUOTE ] So if a gang decides to take your stuff, you have no right to it? Might makes right? What are the "problems" caused by inheritance? What is your proposed alternative to inheritance? A gang of others gets the "right" to take your property because they have the most force? [ QUOTE ] I really think that's impossible to deny. [/ QUOTE ] I deny it. [ QUOTE ] edit: and i would say the sort of property rights you posit that are derived from material + self-ownership are in actuality property that you can control THROUGH self-ownership and is the same right that revolutionaries excerise. [/ QUOTE ] Again, this is might-makes-right thinking. Taking something by force does not inherently confer a legitimate property right.
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#36
11-23-2005, 10:49 AM
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Re: thank you, price \'gougers\'
no no-one can steal the right because the right doesn't exist in the first place.
Show me what a right over property is? it doesn't exist. One can see self-ownership and the consequences, these are perfectly understandable. Ownership of self is demonstratable, ownership over property is nothing but societal convention. Show me owning something. What does it even mean? I'll propose the ownership you're talking about never has, and never could exist.
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#37
11-23-2005, 10:53 AM
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Re: thank you, price \'gougers\'
what i said is impossible to deny is that the right over self is distinct and different then the right over property.
If you are going to deny that, explain how this ownership is not different given that an outsider can forcably take control of one, but cannot take control of the other.
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#38
11-23-2005, 02:43 PM
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Re: thank you, price \'gougers\'
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm pissed at MSFT for setting reverse price controls by pricing their xbox360 too low for the limited supply, thereby increasing demand and making it impossible for me to get one at a store with a return policy. actually, if you think about it, they are manipulating demand through pricing. i wonder if it's possible that other companies would do similar things. i'm not arguing for price controls mind you. i'm just saying even free markets can be imperfect. [/ QUOTE ] What's the problem? They have the xbox, they set the conditions under which they'll sell it (or the conditions under which they want their resellers to sell it under in order for them to distribute it to the reseller). [/ QUOTE ] My point is simply that MSFT is manipulating markets to its benefit. Note that their ability to mandate price controls among retailers is one of the things that is creating this whacky secondary market. Also, if you look at past MSFT practices, you'll see some practices which got in the way of a well-functioning free market. Another way of putting it: it is fair to be skeptical of corporate power AND to be skeptical of government power. It's not like you have to choose one over the other, for now and eternity. In the particular XBOX case, I am not really pissed, other than that I really would have liked to play the new Madden 2006 yesterday at my house instead of at Best Buy. But the case illustrates a relatively harmless example of how companies manipulate markets.
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#39
11-23-2005, 04:34 PM
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Re: thank you, price \'gougers\'
[ QUOTE ]
My point is simply that MSFT is manipulating markets to its benefit. [/ QUOTE ] Manipulating? [ QUOTE ] Note that their ability to mandate price controls among retailers is one of the things that is creating this whacky secondary market. [/ QUOTE ] I still don't see a problem. Should they not be able to set the terms of sale for their own product? [ QUOTE ] Also, if you look at past MSFT practices, you'll see some practices which got in the way of a well-functioning free market. [/ QUOTE ] What do past practices have to do with Xbox360 "manipulation"? [ QUOTE ] Another way of putting it: it is fair to be skeptical of corporate power AND to be skeptical of government power. It's not like you have to choose one over the other, for now and eternity. [/ QUOTE ] I'm skeptical of all sorts of power. I just don't see any abuse here. Maybe there is some, but you haven't pointed to it. [ QUOTE ] In the particular XBOX case, I am not really pissed, other than that I really would have liked to play the new Madden 2006 yesterday at my house instead of at Best Buy. But the case illustrates a relatively harmless example of how companies manipulate markets. [/ QUOTE ] I'd like a Boxter for $100. Is Porsche "manipulating" the market by not selling me one on the terms I want?
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#40
11-23-2005, 04:38 PM
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Re: thank you, price \'gougers\'
Either that or it takes time to make 30 million pieces of a complex piece of equipment!
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