Rick Nebiolo asked me to post this e-mail

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in.

The place you'd probably like is Johnnie's Pastrami on Sepulveda in Culver City. It's an old school California coffee shop joint not a Deli.

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coffee shop in los angeles is a great idea too. do they have those big round booths where we can fit about six or seven? do you have to valet park? valet parking for a coffee shop would ruin it for me.

also gabe, if you happen to eat only about half of what is on your plate (like last time) and i'm sitting next to you do you mind if i "plate pirate" the remaining good stuff? wasted food really makes me depressed but i know some poeple don't like plate pirates.

~ rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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if you visit nyc i believe the 5th street deli is supposed to be the world's best pastrami

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is it true these type of places are still open at about 5:00 am (for the late night, not early morning crowd)?

[PokerSlut]

Jerry's Famous Deli has a good one. I've also heard good things about Schreiner's Fine Sausages, but the discussion was about Reubens also so that might have been what was so good there.

[Rick Nebiolo]

All this discussion of pastrami has got my hungry but since there is no food in the house i'll try to get through your post. You are in italics, i'm normal.

At the table my first though would be as follows:

If I always win with two pair or better then,

The 3's. (I’d assume I’d win 3 more BB.)

3 x 17 = 51

you don't always win pairing a three. you will be lucky to win half the time.


B/D flush. (I’d pick it up 10 times and win 20%. I’d raise as mike did,
when I pick it up, so I win 11sb + 3bb when I make it and lose 1sb
and 2bb when I don’t.)

2 x 17 = 34

8 x 5 = -40

this is probably close to accurate. because the pot really isn't that big, and you will always pay two big bets to draw to it (because you raise or face a raise) the overlay is non-existent.


B/D O/E straight (I’d pick up a non-heart 4 three times. I’d raise, as he
did with the flush draw. Again, 11sb + 3bb when I make it. 1sb + 2bb when
I don’t. I’d make it 17% of the times I pick it up, so about .5 times
I’d win and 2.5 times I’d lose.)

.5 x 17 = 8.5

2.5 x 5 = -12.5[/i]

with a one card bottom end straight you seem to overlook the times you make it and lose.


B/D G/S straight. (3 non-heart deuces and 3 non-heart 7's. Again I’d raise
when I pick it up. I’d make it 9% of the time, so it's about .5 times I’d
win and 5.5 times I’d lose.)

.5 x 17 = 8.5

5.5 x 5 = -27.5

you don't seem to count the times you make it but still lose (but i'm fading, so correct me if i'm wrong).


Trips. (I’d figure I’d win 2 bb more with them.)

2 x 15 = 30

note that the small blind led into six opponents, including the fearsome mike l. generally that means big hand or big draw. there were early callers, even if they sucked they will slowplay big hands or tend to play better hands with players yet to act (divorce results!). you would be lucky to win with trip tens half the time.

No improvement. (Lets say my hand is good and holds up 4% of the time. I
win 2 more bb when I win and loses an average of 1.5 bb more when I lose because I’d make a good lay-down sometimes.)

1 x 11 = 22

22 x -2 = -44

So, my initial overly optimistic view would be, over 47 times I’d win 154sb's and lose
124sb's for a .6sb EV.

i'm officially too tired to to the math but if i did i'd start by correcting some of the components.


I would then quickly look at it more pessimistically.

i'm in charge of pessimism so i won't respond to an imposter.


I would of course realize that, I didn’t count the times I picked up a draw and won with two pair on the river, or the times I got to see the river cheap and won with two pair.

i'll concede here.

I also did not adequately account for the times I’d be able to get multiple bets from more than one opponent, because of my position relative to the bettor.

your position relative to the better helps you get away when you are beat. however, if you get multiple bets from more than one opponent, you will not be getting money odds for that round (but will have dead money that forces you to stay).


Also, a scare card will often come, no one bets and I’d lose less, the times I’d lose.

true, but what about scare cards that knock you off the best hand?


I would consider the possibility that the player behind me might raise, and realize that he would not raise often. Because of his position to the bettor he would only raise for a free card or because he has a very good hand. A raise from him may actually not be too bad, because I may need a free card or his action my help me decide what to do later in the hand.

good point.


So, off the top of my head, I’d say you’re wrong, and folding is a mistake.

recalculate and re-evaluate. i still don't think i'm wrong but perhaps not as right as i originally thought.


You were also wrong about the pastrami at the Hustler. It is much too dry, but I don’t have time to get into that right now.

see elsewhere in this thread for pastrami thoughts. no, one more. i got mine with cole slaw and mustard and put some on both sides and this makes it a lot juicier without being greasy.

~ rick

[mike l.]

well im just going to have to get to hp on a sunday very soon because im awful at poker but i do like to play anyway and i love ping pong ill bring my own racquets and we'll just rent the balls and use the table, it's worth it to just rent the table even though their table sucks compared to my sleek pro stiga model i bought earlier this year. soooo yes that would be super. plus a cocktail from the bar is always good. then off to pinks and i will stand there all night if we must because pinks late at night, the later the better is outstanding stuff. especially when we start to get a little chill in the air like we're getting now, oh man chili cheese fries are excellent late at night.

so ill tell you next time im coming up on a sunday. soon.

[Rick Nebiolo]

mike,

sounds good but it is pool, not ping pong (although i used to be decent at the game). otoh, maybe they have ping pong in the back of the pool room (or was it foosball?) but really pool is better for talking and drinking.

also was thinking of the pink's in hollyood park but if we make it into the city (maybe for drinks) then the original pink's will be the late night spot to go.

yeah, let's think about sundays.

[ethan]

Jerry's just doesn't compare to Canter's. It's at least as expensive, the hours aren't as good, and the food isn't anywhere near to up to par (particularly when considering the reuben, which is too dry and a bit bland at Jerry's.)

And Mike's right, the lamb French-dip at Philippe's is pretty damn good (with either swiss or bleu). I was there often enough last year that most of the counter staff knew me, and I ordered almost nothing but lamb. I've since moved to west LA, and that place is one of the few things I miss about being downtown.

--Ethan

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you visit nyc i believe the 5th street deli is supposed to be the world's best pastrami

[/ QUOTE ]

is it true these type of places are still open at about 5:00 am (for the late night, not early morning crowd)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Being able to get a decent deli sandwitch at pretty much any bodega in the city at pretty much any hour of the day is the one reason that I'd consider leaving Chicago for NYC.

[JimmyV]

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"The small blind led into six opponents.... generally that means big hand or big draw."


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I disagree with this statement, although of course it's not unlikely that SB has one of those two things.

(Irrationally people will CONSISTENTLY bet their middle pair here, glad to have hit the flop and expecting that all their opponents will bow to this inevitability and fold their overcards. (They may have some dim awareness of betting to 'find out where they are.') Astonishingly the opponents call a flop bet anyway, as they did the last hand and the hand before that. I suppose SB is afraid of giving the free card, forgetting what they learned last hand and the hand before that: that in a six way pot in these games there is never, EVER a free turn.)

Rick, would it be too results-oriented for me to point out that SB folded his "big hand or big draw" on the turn for one bet? It's at least one data point, and Q8o is another.

Wondering when Rick will snap and acknowledge that Mike L. is playing against truly inferior opponents, whose inferiority ACTUALLY manifests itself in loose, speculative play,

JimmyV

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
if you visit nyc i believe the 5th street deli is supposed to be the world's best pastrami

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean the Second Avenue Deli (10th St. & 2nd Ave.). There is no Fifth Street Deli in NYC. I don't know if it is really the very best, as there are at least half a dozen other NY delis that could probably lay legitimate claim to that title.