weird re-raise hand (play along) - Page 2

TheWorstPlayer · #11 06-26-2005, 12:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Action vs. a raise would be a tougher decision than you make out; highly read-dependent...

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. But I think I would have to fold to a raise. I just don't see him raising here without an overpair. But I didn't have to make that decision.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($64.05)
CO ($128.98)
Button ($18.62)
SB ($91.55)
Hero ($59.1)
UTG ($37.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP raises to $1, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4.5, MP calls $4, CO folds, Button calls $4.

Flop: ($16.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $14, MP calls $14, Button folds.

Turn: ($44.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero..?

imported_anacardo · #12 06-26-2005, 12:21 AM

Yikes. Bet 3/4 pot or so, I guess. The problem is that he's very likely to represent a K whether he's got one or not. I'll be god-damned if I know what to do if you're raised or called again. You've already represented so much strength! Dealing with good LAGs is the weakest part of my game; I'll be paying close attention to this thread...

kurto · #13 06-26-2005, 12:56 AM

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Even LAGs get hands. Action vs. a raise would be a tougher decision than you make out; highly read-dependent...

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a comment... its true that even LAGS get hands, but a lot of LAGS bet and/or raise whether they have a hand or not.

If you give a LAG credit for a hand everytime they playback at someone, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

I had a good day today at Stars $100NL. Most of my winning hands came from LAGS making moves on me.

Regarding this hand, I don't know enough about how this guy's playing to say how to play it, but if you're going to reraise a LAG with A9 and you hit top pair... you have to play it aggressively.

imported_anacardo · #14 06-26-2005, 01:14 AM

Oh, I totally agree. And Hero did just that, potting the flop. But Villain's still not out, there's a fairly scary overcard on the turn, and Villian is ignoring Hero's display of strength. Bet the turn strongly, but how do you play it if you get raised? Flat called with a blank river?

kurto · #15 06-26-2005, 01:22 AM

When I first posted, I didn't see where he posted the turn.

I think its just as much "LAG' dependent as it is "card dependent."

Clearly if he checks here, the LAG will bet. (for some reason when I read the hand the first time, I thought hero was on the Button)

I don't like it so much now that realize hero didn't have position.

I'd like to know a lot more about the LAG... is he a calling station where he'll call any flop bet with overcards? I play against a lot who almost always call a flop bet regardless if they hit or not. (the good ones do it because they know if they bluff with position they'll steal a lot of pots)

if he's a LAG that calls flop bets unimproved, I think hero has no choice but to continue betting. Sometimes the it takes two shots to get the lag to fold.

Though this situation is why when I playback at a LAG, I do it in late position preferable to the left of the LAG.

TheWorstPlayer · #16 06-26-2005, 01:40 AM

Very good points. I'd love to hear more about the benefits of betting over c/c on the turn. I'll post the rest of the hand tomorrow.

kurto · #17 06-26-2005, 02:08 AM

Against more passive players, I might check the turn.

Against a LAG, if you check a hand to him you have to give up the hand because he will bet it if you don't. he will put you to the test.

But all LAGS aren't stupid. If you show strength twice in a row, they might laydown. If YOU haven't been LAGGY, the LAG is likly to give you credit for a real hand since you did reraise him out of position.

For the most part, it simply comes down to, if you check you give him control and he will take it. (and he'll probably bet more money then you want to call to see if he's bluffing.) Unless he has a king, that king is as scary to him as it is to you.

You may lose money this way on this hand, but it is also a good setup for later hands. Show the LAG that you can play his game too. And it will encourage him to call you later when you have a monster.

another note: this works better if you don't do it all the time. If the LAG thinks you're a rock, you can get him to fold a lot more. If you're playing back at him all the time, then don't do it out of position because you'll put yourself in the positio where you have to keep betting into him.

I can tell its late because I'm rambling more then usual and I don't know that I'm saying much. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

TheWorstPlayer · #18 06-26-2005, 02:16 AM

OK, here's what I want to know. Do people think that I am behind but I should bet the K as a scare card, do people think that I am ahead and should bet the turn to protect my hand, or do people think that I am ahead and should check/call the turn to let the LAG bet the K as a scare card with a worse hand? What are the probabilities of being ahead/behind here, do people think, and what is the best line, given those probabilities. I admit I was in a pickled.

kurto · #19 06-26-2005, 02:35 AM

Its really easier to judge if you're ahead if you say a little more about his flop typical flop play.

If he's raising 18% of the time, I'd guess he's the kind who raises with any pair, and 2 suited, any ace, any connectors and probably any 2 broadway. And probably quite a lot of bets with junk simply because he has position.

based simply on his raising percentage, there's a respectable chance that you're ahead. Just as important, he could have a hand better then yours (like a pair of 10s) but fold.

His range of hands is too broad to put him on a hand. But since his range is so broad, you could certainly be ahead.

[ QUOTE ]
should check/call the turn to let the LAG bet the K as a scare card with a worse hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't like this. Because so often they will overbet the pot. I would rathar control the size of the bets and make him question what you're holding.

If you bet the turn and he calls again... I'd be pretty nervous. (I have fired third shots in situations like this and won... but in those cases, I had a very good on how the person played the flop.)

I'll prevent you from having to read more of my ramblings tonight. I'm off to sleep.

I'll be checking in tomorrow to hear what happened. I hate leaving without knowing the ending. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

FreakDaddy · #20 06-26-2005, 02:36 AM

To play GOOD poker you can't wind tunnel play these hands and get good advice. To give accurate effective advice in this scenario I'd need to know three things.

1) Does LAG call a lot of flop bets and fold when bet into again?
2) How often does he push his stack?
3) Have you been laying down a lot of hands recently?

On the turn both of you are near a push or check scenario. Especially you. You have roughly $40 left. Being a LAG myself, I'll look certain player types up (especially weak/tight players and flops like this) and flat call flop bets to see if I'm bet into again on the turn. If I'm not I'll push them off the hand (again against certain player types).

So your options are:
A) Check and give up the hand, in which you will most likely be bet into.
B) Push, and hope you're ahead.

Yes, you could be behind to a set or overpair, but there is a large range of hands that you beat here. The major problem here IS the turn card itself. Villian could have easily called with overcards (especially if he's a LAG) and now have hit his hand, which is quite likely. LAGS will raise with almost any Ace and king combo. So combine the fact that he could have already had you beat on the flop, the king adds more uncertantity.

I really don't like getting my whole stack in here with A9. Considering everything I think I'd check and see how the action is back to you.

There is another line that you could use that may confuse the villian, but it just depends how observant/aggresive he is. You could bet 1/4 of the pot attempting to represent a strong hand that wants a call. By risking a smaller amount but taking the lead, you may get villian to fold, but you may also see a cheaper showdown. If he's not a very observant LAG he may just take the bet as a sign of weakness and come back over the top, and then you'll have the same decision you had a little while ago, but with an extra couple of chips less. I wouldn't advise this line without a good read of course though. You have to have a real feel for your opponent.