Is this a case of... wait for the turn?

ArturiusX · #1 03-22-2005, 11:55 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

River: (15.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

I didn't feel like a raise would help me much, [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] were always going to chase and so many people in the pot I felt my best bet was to wait for the blank on the turn and wage war. Correct?

Shillx · #2 03-22-2005, 11:57 PM

Beautiful. I like all of it.

Brad

imported_legoman · #3 03-22-2005, 11:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't feel like a raise would help me much, [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] were always going to chase and so many people in the pot I felt my best bet was to wait for the blank on the turn and wage war. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
And by raising the turn, clubs aren't going to call one more bet to see the river??

I'd raise the flop and hope the SB 3-bets me. The SB sure isn't 3-beting the turn without a flush, so the clubs still chase for the 4th club on the river.

cmwck · #4 03-23-2005, 12:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't feel like a raise would help me much, [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] were always going to chase and so many people in the pot I felt my best bet was to wait for the blank on the turn and wage war. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
And by raising the turn, clubs aren't going to call one more bet to see the river??

I'd raise the flop and hope the SB 3-bets me. The SB sure isn't 3-beting the turn without a flush, so the clubs still chase for the 4th club on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the turn is a blank, your pot equity goes up a lot (perhaps a little less than doubles), because now you only have to dodge a club once, and you can now start extracting bets.

But, if the turn is a club and people start raising, you just fold, saving some bets.

You're missing some bets on the flop, but you will make up for it by raising the turn.

p.s. I hope the above is correct [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

ArturiusX · #5 03-23-2005, 12:09 AM

Exactly. I'd gain what, 3BB maybe by raising the flop? Raise the turn, I gain much more than that + I give myself a large chance of winning the pot. Sounds good to me.

imported_legoman · #6 03-23-2005, 12:47 AM

So by raising the flop, you put an extra 3BB in the pot.
By raising the turn, you got 2 BB in the pot.

I was more commenting on the reasoning behind the wait. You said that clubs are going to call a flop raise. I'm saying they would call a turn raise too, since it's only going to be 1 more due to your positions.
Also, if the SB 3-bets the flop (with say, a high club), then you put even more into the pot. If the SB 3-bets, then an additional 3BB will be in the pot (assumign they call). This is an additional 6BB, which is enough to justify raising the flop. If you get a couple folders, then you're only putting in an added 5BB, but it is still enough to justify the raise. If the SB doesn't raise, then the 3BB is still more than the 2BB you picked up on the turn.

toss · #7 03-23-2005, 12:52 AM

Its true that you may be passing up equity by calling the flop, but this lets you exploit a much larger equity on the turn. On the turn you have a much higher chance of winning the pot.

ErrantNight · #8 03-23-2005, 12:53 AM

i'm torn. no flush is going anywhere, period. i'll feel a lot better about a turn non-club, and if i raise now the pot may very well be so big i may be seeing the river even if a club falls.

but i think i raise now and try to charge the draws as much as i can. further, even with this huge field i'm likely ahead right now, barring another club falling. my equity will certainly increase greatly on the turn, but i can't do anything about that, and i can't protect.

i'm not convinced you shouldn't raise this flop for value.

ErrantNight · #9 03-23-2005, 12:56 AM

and yes, i understand why he should wait for the turn. but i think you'd like to get the non club draws to pay now. you can't do anything about the club draws. even on the turn.