Tournament ruling

pudley4 · #1 10-12-2004, 04:15 PM

Home NL Holdem Tourney. Approx 40 players. Approx 12 remaining. Top 5 get paid.

Blinds are 150/300. Hero (not me) is CO w/TT and has approx T1500. He is the 3-time defending champ at this tourney, and everyone knows it. They also know he plays very tight.

Folded to Hero, he pushes. It appears everyone folds. The dealer drops the deck and starts to push him the pot; he tosses his cards in the muck. The BB suddenly says "wait, I haven't decided what to do yet" - he still has cards and he has hero covered.

The BB is the tournament director. He is a decent player (especially for this tournament) who thinks he's a lot better player than he is. He's also the type of guy who would take an angle shot like hiding his cards or such.

Hero complains that he couldn't see BB still had cards. He also tells the guy next to him exactly which two cards he has, points them out to the guy who grabs them and verifies they match what he was told.

What's the ruling?

SossMan · #2 10-12-2004, 04:57 PM

Anal Rule:
His cards hit the muck, it's a dead hand. That's it...it sucks, but that's the rule.

Friendly Home Game Rule:
If he can point out exactly which two cards from the muck are his cards and identify them to a disinterested 3rd party, and a majority of the players agree that it was indeed his hand that was pulled from the top of the muck, I would give his cards back and allow the dildo in the BB to quietly muck his 62o.

Emperor · #3 10-12-2004, 05:42 PM

Well if Hero knows the ruling is probably going to go against him... then he should say, "Wait! count the deck! Those 2 cards came from his coat!" Then flip the table over and shoot the place up..

I think this is the only proper response...

Ok seriously he should just get up and wish the BB good luck... and then roll him in the parking lot afterwards...

renodoc · #4 10-12-2004, 08:44 PM

I think the BB should take a 20 minute penalty and be forced to watch a video of Michael Moore eating pizza adn belching...

bigfishead · #5 10-13-2004, 01:38 AM

WTF is a TD doing playing in his own tourn?

Kill his hand he could have stopped it sooner, make HIM pay the penalty. Very unethical. He shouldnt have 1 penny of involvement in the event nor take shots.

37offsuit · #6 10-13-2004, 08:11 AM

It's unfortunate but the Hero shouldn't have mucked his cards.

How did he miss the BB still not deciding? Argue about having the TD involved at all, but like it or not, he is and everyone must be OK with that.

This play (pushing) was designed to either pick up the blinds and antes or get heads up action with likely the best hand. How then can you not notice the BB has yet to act? You see the button fold. You look next to the SB. He folds to. Then you...what? I don't get missing the BB.

pudley4 · #7 10-13-2004, 09:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's unfortunate but the Hero shouldn't have mucked his cards.

How did he miss the BB still not deciding? Argue about having the TD involved at all, but like it or not, he is and everyone must be OK with that.

This play (pushing) was designed to either pick up the blinds and antes or get heads up action with likely the best hand. How then can you not notice the BB has yet to act? You see the button fold. You look next to the SB. He folds to. Then you...what? I don't get missing the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

These tournaments are always loud and disorganized. BB can be very inattentive. He's always looking around and talking to other players. It's not uncommon to have to remind him the action is on him.

In this hand, after hero pushed, everyone else acted at about the same time - everyone tossed their cards, the dealer dropped the deck, and BB wasn't paying attention. His cards were sitting out in front of him, so everyone assumed he too was folding. It was only after hero started taking the pot that BB spoke up.

FatMan · #8 10-13-2004, 10:02 PM

This comes from Roberts Rules of poker auther by Bob Ciaffone. It's the TD's call, but if he has any balls at all he'll let the hero play his hand.

"Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player. "

MilwaukeeBull · #9 10-14-2004, 10:42 AM

Whenever I play these games, before I muck I take the extra time to make sure there are no other hands that might be in play. I think Soss summed it up nicely. It is a home game afterall and he shouldn't be such a toy.

willie · #10 10-14-2004, 11:40 AM

I did this in a tourney 2 weeks ago, i only had ace 8 suited with a minraise so when it was folded I tossed my hand in.... "wait i still have to act". 3rd party pulls my 2 from the muck, i check and yes it is still my ace trash, bb mucks...i take the blinds.

it's a home game, you don't want to create any bad feelings, but you do want to be fair. I'd say let the bb muck cause he's not callin probably just pulling some sneaky ish.