What to do on the river...

[cgwahl]

when you have been betting on the flop and turn (semi-bluff) and you don't make your hand on the river (or you do, but have reason to believe that the other guy made a better one)? Usually this would be when you would be the first guy to bet each time..

Is the best thing to do is just check and hope he checks as well or if he does bet just fold? With occasional betting again in hope the guy folds.


Sorry if this sounds like a dumb (or very basic) question...I suppose the best strategy would be just to get out on the turn by checking and then folding if they bet. But there have been many times when I thought or believed that the other guy would fold (or I believed the odds were with me on getting the card(s) I needed on the river) by betting and then of course, he didn't fold. Then when the river came I didn't get my card/hand.

I am mostly unsure what to do on the end, just check then fold, check then raise (in hopes he'll fold) or just check and hope you win if he checks?


Posted this in beginners forum, but was told I'd probably get more answers here. Thanks to all whom answer.

[amulet]

i need more info to help. are you betting a draw heads up? if so are you getting the correct odds? or are you chasing with no pair? the two are different. what do you put your opponent on? if you think he is on a real hand vs a draw the two are different. and pot size is very important. however, here are a few general rules. if you don't have an opened ended str8 or flush draw or top pair and you have at least 2 opponents do not bet. if you have top pair - bet. if you have an open ended draw and you think your semi bluff may work - meaning you may win the pot right there then bet.
unless the pot is big or it is bliind vs blind do not chase with middle or bottom pair or no pair (this is very very broad advice and not always correct, however since you said you posted it in the bigginer's form, this will win more for you then it will lose.) and most importantly read poker books.

[cgwahl]

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i need more info to help. are you betting a draw heads up? if so are you getting the correct odds? or are you chasing with no pair? the two are different. what do you put your opponent on? if you think he is on a real hand vs a draw the two are different. and pot size is very important. however, here are a few general rules. if you don't have an opened ended str8 or flush draw or top pair and you have at least 2 opponents do not bet. if you have top pair - bet. if you have an open ended draw and you think your semi bluff may work - meaning you may win the pot right there then bet.
unless the pot is big or it is bliind vs blind do not chase with middle or bottom pair or no pair (this is very very broad advice and not always correct, however since you said you posted it in the bigginer's form, this will win more for you then it will lose.) and most importantly read poker books.

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Betting on a draw...usually open ended straight or a flush. With occasional inside straight (although I am normally hesitant to do it with this one; maybe just check and call). Usually just one other guy, but sometimes might be 2 or 3 others. Semi-bluff will normally take out one or two of them though.

At best I may put the other guy on two pair...although there has been a couple times I believed the guy may have made trips on the turn (I know, my mistake to bet). Or possibly also going for the straight. However, I felt the odds were in my favor on the river.

I don't like to chase (I realized very early on in learning this game that it is not worthwhile). However, if the bet is small, I may occasionally call it.


Have read Theory of Poker (although will read it again soon; at least the chapters I need to work on). Currently on Hold 'em for Advanced Players. Could you recommend any others after this? Thinking that Lee Jones Low-Limit one. Maybe Super Sytem 2 when it comes out (assuming its not already out that is).

[senjitsu]

I'm assmuing you believe that your hand isn't going to win a showdown.

If you bet, you could be called or raised (you would fold to a riase, obviously), in which case you will lose one more bet. In this particular case, where you have nothing other than a missed draw, (and thus attach no value to being able to show your hand down) bei9ng called and raised are the same. Your opponent could fold, in which case you win the pot.

There are very, very many players in lower limits who are simply incapable of folding TPTK under any circumstances, let alone 2 pair or trips. If this is the type of player you're up against, then you'll just have to come to terms with not getting the pot check and fold.

If the board is frightening enough, and if you believe your opponent capable of folding even a small percentage of the time, then you should bet here if you are getting a positive EV on a bet (that is to say, if you believe your opponent will fold more often than the size of the bet devided by the size of the pot)

That said, if you attach any value to showing down your hand, you should be more inclined to bet if your opponent has been calling the whole way. If you check after having been betting the whole way, he will likely bet into you unless he is an exceptionally passive player, while he will most likely just call a fifth street bet again. If you are committed to showing down your hand, its better to get your bet in and get the extra value of having your opponent possibly fold.

jc


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i need more info to help. are you betting a draw heads up? if so are you getting the correct odds? or are you chasing with no pair? the two are different. what do you put your opponent on? if you think he is on a real hand vs a draw the two are different. and pot size is very important. however, here are a few general rules. if you don't have an opened ended str8 or flush draw or top pair and you have at least 2 opponents do not bet. if you have top pair - bet. if you have an open ended draw and you think your semi bluff may work - meaning you may win the pot right there then bet.
unless the pot is big or it is bliind vs blind do not chase with middle or bottom pair or no pair (this is very very broad advice and not always correct, however since you said you posted it in the bigginer's form, this will win more for you then it will lose.) and most importantly read poker books.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting on a draw...usually open ended straight or a flush. With occasional inside straight (although I am normally hesitant to do it with this one; maybe just check and call). Usually just one other guy, but sometimes might be 2 or 3 others. Semi-bluff will normally take out one or two of them though.

At best I may put the other guy on two pair...although there has been a couple times I believed the guy may have made trips on the turn (I know, my mistake to bet). Or possibly also going for the straight. However, I felt the odds were in my favor on the river.

I don't like to chase (I realized very early on in learning this game that it is not worthwhile). However, if the bet is small, I may occasionally call it.


Have read Theory of Poker (although will read it again soon; at least the chapters I need to work on). Currently on Hold 'em for Advanced Players. Could you recommend any others after this? Thinking that Lee Jones Low-Limit one. Maybe Super Sytem 2 when it comes out (assuming its not already out that is).

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[sin808]

Small Stakes Hold 'em- Ed Miller.

The answer to your question is, it depends. On your opponents, the pot size, reads, etc. etc. Unfortunately there is no simple answer to your question since it's very situational.

[cgwahl]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm assmuing you believe that your hand isn't going to win a showdown.

If you bet, you could be called or raised (you would fold to a riase, obviously), in which case you will lose one more bet. In this particular case, where you have nothing other than a missed draw, (and thus attach no value to being able to show your hand down) bei9ng called and raised are the same. Your opponent could fold, in which case you win the pot.

There are very, very many players in lower limits who are simply incapable of folding TPTK under any circumstances, let alone 2 pair or trips. If this is the type of player you're up against, then you'll just have to come to terms with not getting the pot check and fold.

If the board is frightening enough, and if you believe your opponent capable of folding even a small percentage of the time, then you should bet here if you are getting a positive EV on a bet (that is to say, if you believe your opponent will fold more often than the size of the bet devided by the size of the pot)

That said, if you attach any value to showing down your hand, you should be more inclined to bet if your opponent has been calling the whole way. If you check after having been betting the whole way, he will likely bet into you unless he is an exceptionally passive player, while he will most likely just call a fifth street bet again. If you are committed to showing down your hand, its better to get your bet in and get the extra value of having your opponent possibly fold.

jc

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Ok, so I wasn't playing it as wrongly as I thought I probably was. Thank you.


sin808=>Thats true too. And thanks, will get that book next.


Thanks amulet, senj and sin for answering.