One for Trix, Nate, Ace-high steal.

Joe Tall · #1 02-23-2005, 04:50 AM

In Nate's recent "Too Tight" thread he mentioned something about liking 98s over Ax in steal situations. Trix also asked if I could post an Ace-high hand after making a quick comment to Nate. Here is such a hand.

Opponent in this hand has yet to fold a BB in 57 hands as he plays 70% of them, likes to bluff on raggy boards and raises preflop a lot w/marginal holdings. You know, a typical HUSH poster.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Joe Tall is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Joe Tall raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Joe Tall checks, BB bets, Joe Tall calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Joe Tall checks, BB bets, Joe Tall calls.

River: (5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Joe Tall checks, BB checks.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Nate tha' Great · #2 02-23-2005, 05:58 AM

I think I like it. You have very little folding equity on this flop and you have enough hand that you'd like to show it down, but not to have to pay a lot of bets to do it.

The only problem IMHO comes on the river. I think there's a fairly good chance that BB figures out exactly what you're doing, and does not bluff as often as he might if the momentum of the hand were different, which is a bad thing if you're planning on calling no matter what.

captZEEbo1 · #3 02-23-2005, 06:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The only problem IMHO comes on the river. I think there's a fairly good chance that BB figures out exactly what you're doing, and does not bluff as often as he might if the momentum of the hand were different, which is a bad thing if you're planning on calling no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying he didn't get in enough bets with A hi here, or are you saying that calling might be a mistake on the river?

Nate tha' Great · #4 02-23-2005, 06:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only problem IMHO comes on the river. I think there's a fairly good chance that BB figures out exactly what you're doing, and does not bluff as often as he might if the momentum of the hand were different, which is a bad thing if you're planning on calling no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying he didn't get in enough bets with A hi here, or are you saying that calling might be a mistake on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, both really.

I think if you bet out on this flop and he raises, and you call and also check-call the turn, that he's more likely to bet the river with a worse hand since he might think that you have some sort of draw and would fold if you didn't improve, or would just let the momentum of the hand carry his decision without really thinking much about it at all. Joe's line here basically says "we're seeing a showdown" which makes it more likely that the opponent is only going to bet if its for value. OTOH if we're check-folding the river then that undermines the whole point of the play to begin with, except against a player we know very well who absolutely wouldn't bet the river with a worse hand.

There's also a secondary point about it usually being best to avoid choppy, discontinuous actions against generally unskilled opponents. When you check this flop when he isn't expecting you to, I think that wakes him up and makes him somewhat more likely to make better, thinking decisions.

Joe Tall · #5 02-23-2005, 10:32 AM

The only problem IMHO comes on the river. I think there's a fairly good chance that BB figures out exactly what you're doing, and does not bluff as often as he might if the momentum of the hand were different, which is a bad thing if you're planning on calling no matter what.

Nate,

I think you are neglecting the times he checks though with a better hand which is going to happen often given the action.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Schneids · #6 02-23-2005, 02:46 PM

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I think you are neglecting the times he checks though with a better hand which is going to happen often given the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly agree with this statement.

Joe Tall · #7 02-23-2005, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The only problem IMHO comes on the river. I think there's a fairly good chance that BB figures out exactly what you're doing, and does not bluff as often as he might if the momentum of the hand were different, which is a bad thing if you're planning on calling no matter what.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are neglecting the times he checks though with a better hand which is going to happen often given the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly agree with this statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think a weak piece of the board, better Ace, or small PP checks-through, giving me a cheap showdown? That's where I'm getting at as my check/call, check/call costs me less when I'm behind as I head to showdown my Ace-high.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Schneids · #8 02-23-2005, 03:11 PM

I said I agreed with you.

Grisgra · #9 02-23-2005, 03:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think a weak piece of the board, better Ace, or small PP checks-through, giving me a cheap showdown? That's where I'm getting at as my check/call, check/call costs me less when I'm behind as I head to showdown my Ace-high.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my very limited experience at 10/20, most people with even the tiniest piece of the board are going to value-bet the river on you. Probably even moreso 4-handed. Lower limits, you're more likely to see a showdown against a better hand for free.

imitation · #10 02-23-2005, 06:07 AM

I don't see what's special about this hand....