LO8 2/4 bottom set, second low draw on flop

[MediaPA]

Niss,

Ok, I'm definitely not into Omaha/8 thinking completely yet. Top 2 on this board would appear to be a good high hand to me given the flop. Only hands that I'd probably sweat for high would be trip 3s or Ks. I don't think I'd worry about 4,5,6 all being in someone's hand. The board essentially destroys his bad low draw (A,7) and ideally I'd think he'd want to see Q,J on the flop for the draw. I'm assuming he can call w/ this hand for $4 if he doesn't lead? But why is leading here so terrible?

On the turn, leading seems more pointless to me since the low has been made. Assuming that he doesn't lead, is calling w/ top 2 on this board bad for 8? I'm still not really fearful of much beating my top 2 pair.

On the river, I'm still probably liking my hand. No straight/flush draws, only thing that beats me is trips or KJ which I doubt would be around still. It seems that he accepted trips since he quite leading and just calls on the end.

[ QUOTE ]
Niss,

Ok, I'm definitely not into Omaha/8 thinking completely yet. Top 2 on this board would appear to be a good high hand to me given the flop. Only hands that I'd probably sweat for high would be trip 3s or Ks. I don't think I'd worry about 4,5,6 all being in someone's hand. The board essentially destroys his bad low draw (A,7) and ideally I'd think he'd want to see Q,J on the flop for the draw. I'm assuming he can call w/ this hand for $4 if he doesn't lead? But why is leading here so terrible?

On the turn, leading seems more pointless to me since the low has been made. Assuming that he doesn't lead, is calling w/ top 2 on this board bad for 8? I'm still not really fearful of much beating my top 2 pair.

On the river, I'm still probably liking my hand. No straight/flush draws, only thing that beats me is trips or KJ which I doubt would be around still. It seems that he accepted trips since he quite leading and just calls on the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

His hand is crap because he's playing a mediocre high hand for 1/2 the pot. Maybe he could check-call a bet after the flop on the hope that the turn gives him a boat, which would then make a low hand less likely. But who is he betting out of this hand? No low draw is going to fold, and it's unlikely that a better high hand (i.e., trips) will fold, particularly at this limit. Anyone with a combination of a-2-4-5, a-3-4-5, 2-3-4-5, or even less favorable starting hands such as 2-4-5-6 are also drawing for a straight and won't fold. I definitely would not lead out, and would consider calling one bet if everyone else went along with me.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]


Top 2 on this board would appear to be a good high hand to me given the flop. But why is leading here so terrible?


[/ QUOTE ]

What turn and river cards do you want to see?
How often will those combinations occur?

[lighterjobs]

this is a nice hand you can limp with but a good hand to let go of if you are having to cold-call two bets preflop. no suits and no real chance of winning the high unless you get a wheel, quads or a set.

i see no problem with three betting the turn after hitting your gin card, and a no brainer river bet.

the only problem with playing this on the flop is if you don't hit the deuce, you are in trouble. the good thing about this board is it's not connected at all, no flush/straight draws so you don't have to worry about any redraws.

the only thing you really have to worry about is, say if a five hit the turn. you would have the second nut low with a redraw to an extremly weak full house. i would be interested to see how you would play the hand if a five/six hit the turn.

I'm still learning the game so for those offering insight, would reraising on the flop be a bad play to force a better low draw out like A-2 to give the hero a better chance to scoop?

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still learning the game so for those offering insight, would reraising on the flop be a bad play to force a better low draw out like A-2 to give the hero a better chance to scoop?

[/ QUOTE ]

At this level no A2 is folding here.

[Drizztdj]

Refer to the power of the overcall with possible nut-nut hands.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, I'm looking at this hand and wondering if I butchered it a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

PA - I wouldn’t say you did anything wrong at all.

Your starting hand, A334n, is nice enough so that you should generally want to see the flop for a single bet. It’s strong enough to raise with, before the flop.

(But when the action gets to you before the flop, if UTG had raised, A334n would not strong enough to re-raise because of the danger UTG made the pre-flop raise <font color="white">_</font>(rightly or wrongly) with A2XY).

If you, yourself, usually or always raise with A2XY before the flop, then I think you should also raise with this hand to partly disguise your raises with A2XY hands.

In addition, by raising before the flop, you might knock out another opponent who has A3WX or A4YZ and who might otherwise tie you for low.

However, you didn’t raise before the flop and as things turned out, you probably got the optimum out of your hand by playing it just as you did.

In the main, A334n is primarily a low type hand, winning low or a share of low more frequently in simulations than winning high or a share of high by about a four to one ratio (including scoops where it wins both ways).

The nemesis of A334 as a low hand is A2XY. Roughly half of the time when you hold A334n in a full game, an opponent will hold A2XY - and then you will probably need to see a deuce on the board to win the low. (“Probably” because your 34 could win or tie the low if your ace was counterfeited).

Playing Texas hold ‘em, my experience is that some opponents will often bet as much because of what they think you<font color="white">_</font>don’t hold as they will bet because of what they, themselves,<font color="white">_</font>do hold.
But there isn’t much of this type of bluffing by seasoned Omaha-8 players immediately after the flop - some, but not much.
Anyhow, I don’t think that’s quite what SB and UTG are doing after this flop or 37Kn, although that may be part of the thinking of at least one of them.
Instead, I think they both believe or hope they have hands that fit well with this flop.

Neither SB nor UTG has a hand worth playing after this flop. Yet they both act as though they do!

And that makes them very hard to play against when the action gets to you after this flop and you are facing a double bet with the very reasonable possibility of at least one re-raise. Facing a bet and a raise after this flop, you have to be concerned about possibly being up against A2XY for low and you also have to be concerned about being up against a set of kings for high.

Thus, facing a bet and a raise after this flop, with four opponents due to act after you do, including the original bettor, neither your second nut A4-combo looks very good for low nor your set of treys looks very good for high. You shouldn’t really want to see anything but a trey or a deuce on the turn. There’s only one trey left, you have to strongly suspect that at least one of your opponents is marked for ace-deuce-X-Y, and a deuce is most likely only good for half the pot anyway.

One could make a good case for folding your cards to the double bet after this flop against some groups of opponents. Instead you call the double bet, as does MP3, the player with the best starting hand and also with the best fit for this flop.

And in the end, MP3, gets a quarter and profits a small amount, while you get three quarters.

I don’t think SB’s post flop play, though poor, is as poor as UTG’s post flop play. A moot point since they both are blowing smoke and figure to lose unless their hyper-aggressive play intimidates their opponents. The main problem with betting the flop as though they have a good fit when they really don’t, is they can’t intimidate someone with the nuts or someone who has flopped the nut draw, such as MP3. And if they fail to intimidate someone like you who holds a hand that could call a single bet after this flop, but a hand that really shouldn’t probably call a double bet against solid opponents betting this way, then they lose.

What your post beautifully illustrates is that how you should play any particular set of cards you have been dealt in Omaha-8 is very opponent dependent.

Just my humble opinion.

Buzz

[benwood]

In these 2/4 games, the original bet &amp; raise can be based on some very crappy hands(as shown). Also, other players will call 2 bets with all sorts of speculative hands.If I'm going to call the flop, I had just as soon 3-bet it &amp; try to protect my high against some fool hitting an inside straight or picking up a flush draw &amp; going on to beat me,or whatever.Also,you may get another A-4 draw out or even an occasional A-2.(Who knows?)