playing draws out of position on the flop... discussion?

bholdr · #1 10-27-2005, 01:08 AM

in another thread, xorbie made some good points about flop play when one gets a good draw out of position, which we discussed all-too breifly. I tend to have trouble (i mean: i tend to get myself into trouble [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]) in this spot, so i'd like some more opinions on this all-too-common and often sticky NL situation. For the purposes of discussion, here's a common situation example to discuss:

Assuming, say, a standard PS or Party $200 NL game with 100BB stacks.

Hero, in the BB with medium suited connectors, calls a standard (say 4x BB) raise from a MP TAG player, and it goes HU to the flop.

hero flops a flush draw or OESD on a raggedy flop.

What do you feel are the relitive merits of:
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] leading into the PF raiser
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] check-raising
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] check-calling
Which do you prefer?

i tend to favor either C/C or leading into the raiser, and i almost ever C/R the flop with a strong draw. thoughts? your default approach? how 'bout against a LAG? A donk?

examples and anecdotes welcome, too. can we get a good discussion going?

BobboFitos · #2 10-27-2005, 01:36 AM

fold pf

jzpiano14 · #3 10-27-2005, 01:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]

and i almost ever C/R the flop with a strong draw.[ QUOTE ]

is this supposed to be never??

DJ Sensei · #4 10-27-2005, 01:49 AM

On a raggedy flop, I prefer leading into the PFR for 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot. If he has busted high cards, you might take the pot right there. Otherwise, he might raise you a small amount, giving you the odds to draw (or close to them).

If you hit your draw, the check-raise on the turn is a strong play against most aggressive opponents, although it might chase off the tighter ones. Leading into him again can work too, if he's aggressive enough to raise you so you can 3-bet. This can extract more chips than a check-raise, and also ensures that he doesnt get a free card to possibly outdraw you.

If you miss your draw, you're better off not betting at it. Too many players bet small on the flop, call a raise, and bet small again on the turn. This screams "I'm trying to draw for cheap!" and will too often get reraised big enough to chase them off. However, If you lead the flop and call a raise, and then check the turn, you'll often get a fairly small bet from the aggressor, since he wants to keep you in the pot. It might even be enough to keep drawing, given implied odds.

Also, I prefer a straight draw in this situation. His overpair is much less likely to bug out when another random middle card hits (thus making my straight), but if a 3-flush comes on board, he'll probably tighten up a little bit with his donations.
Also, the straight draw has the added bonus of possibly bluffing when a flush comes.

#5 10-27-2005, 02:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf

[/ QUOTE ]
why fold preflop for? he's only raised u 4 BB, assuming he has a large stack u make the call trying to bust him and ne other plyrs entering the pot.

kurto · #6 10-27-2005, 02:35 AM

Fold preflop.

Its a terrible hand to play out of position.

bholdr · #7 10-27-2005, 03:36 AM

100bb stacks, $1/2 NL, you have 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB... raised from MP, pot is $9, $6 to you, you fold?

Lucky · #8 10-27-2005, 03:44 AM

You prob fold preflop if it looks to be head up. It's the same with small pair, you can burn thru a ton calling full raise OOP with suited connecters or pairs.

Even with pairs, its tough to bust someone OOP when you hit your set. And with your suite connectors, you basically got what you wanted and it can still be an expensive losing hand.

That being said, with a straight draw, if he's fairly tight, ill lead out for half the pot. If he's a laggy plyaer who'll jam it with missed slick because he's also a good reader, i c/c flop depending on how big his bet is versus how likely he is to pay off.

Malachii · #9 10-27-2005, 04:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
100bb stacks, $1/2 NL, you have 78 in the BB... raised from MP, pot is $9, $6 to you, you fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes with no read. On the button it's a completely different story. Although it obviously depends on the raiser. If it's someone who is capable of folding hands, then you can play your draws aggressively with a bet / 3 bet all in line.

xorbie · #10 10-27-2005, 05:07 AM

I check raise people who continuation bet too often but are not crazy. I bet/3-bet crazy people from to time, I prefer to have 12+ outs with this though. I check/call calling station types who will pay off always. I lead against people who open raise a decent amount but are generally pretty passive postflop.