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  #11  
Old 12-20-2005, 12:49 PM
dporter dporter is offline
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Default Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2

What is villian's chip count before the hand?
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  #12  
Old 12-20-2005, 01:19 PM
Art Vandelay Art Vandelay is offline
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Default Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2

I don't think he's sitting on AA or KK (and maybe QQ) as he just smooth called your reraise preflop and with his stack I'd think a preflop push would be more likely. I'd put him on AJ-AK, 77+. I'd bet ~2/3 of the pot, 600 and plan on calling a push. The only hand I'm REALLY afraid of is AK or AQ with the K or Q of clubs.
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  #13  
Old 12-20-2005, 03:45 PM
Dave D Dave D is offline
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Default Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2

[ QUOTE ]
What is villian's chip count before the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cmon dude, don't be lazy and do some simple math, its in the OP. He called 400 chips PF, and has 1250 behind after checking to me on the flop. So 1650
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  #14  
Old 12-20-2005, 03:54 PM
Dave D Dave D is offline
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Default Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he's sitting on AA or KK (and maybe QQ) as he just smooth called your reraise preflop and with his stack I'd think a preflop push would be more likely. I'd put him on AJ-AK, 77+. I'd bet ~2/3 of the pot, 600 and plan on calling a push. The only hand I'm REALLY afraid of is AK or AQ with the K or Q of clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that AA/KK or QQ neccessarily pushes back. Personally if I were villian I'd smooth call with those hands and try to get the other guy to committ to my all in on the flop. Moreso with AA/KK.

If you put him on an ace as about a half to one third of his range, why would you bet? That just plays right into what he wants me to do as he'll obviously push back, especially with AQ,AJ,AK, and maybe AT.

The point I've brought up earlier is if you plan on calling a push no matter what, why not just push and make him possibly have to make a difficult decision? Maybe I'll get a non club high pair to fold?
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  #15  
Old 12-20-2005, 03:57 PM
mlagoo mlagoo is offline
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Default Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2

if you are betting this flop, and you should, it has to be a push so that villian doesn't have the "illusion" of fold equity. obviously there is very little calling you here that you beat, but the idea is that you don't get called and don't give him a chance to bluff you off of the best hand on the turn.
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  #16  
Old 12-20-2005, 04:16 PM
Dave D Dave D is offline
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Default Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2

[ QUOTE ]
if you are betting this flop, and you should, it has to be a push so that villian doesn't have the "illusion" of fold equity. obviously there is very little calling you here that you beat, but the idea is that you don't get called and don't give him a chance to bluff you off of the best hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

WWYD here?
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  #17  
Old 12-20-2005, 04:23 PM
MLG MLG is offline
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Default Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2

Given the size of villains stack i would have made it 550ish pre, so that if I decided to bet the flop I wouldnt have these weird stack size issues.
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  #18  
Old 12-20-2005, 04:23 PM
mlagoo mlagoo is offline
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Default Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are betting this flop, and you should, it has to be a push so that villian doesn't have the "illusion" of fold equity. obviously there is very little calling you here that you beat, but the idea is that you don't get called and don't give him a chance to bluff you off of the best hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

WWYD here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the only options are to (a) push the flop, or (b) to check it through and fold to a bet on a non-club turn/call or overpush to a bet on a club turn.

Obviously the worst case scenario on a flop push is you get called with AK/AQ with a club kicker, but there are also a lot of good/decent results: (1) folding out hands like clubless QQ/KK; (2) folding out hands like 99/TT before you give them a chance to bluff you off your hand on the turn; (3) getting it in against Ax (w/ no club) with 11 outs twice...

so i guess i push the flop.

edit: wanted to add, good hand, ive got to pack up stuff and head home for the holidays, but i'll be checking on this later to see what people had to say.
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  #19  
Old 12-20-2005, 04:53 PM
FrogMouth FrogMouth is offline
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Default Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2

Good news its a Pary 20+2 with blinds at 25/50 and the tourney is still full of dummys. Whatever you bet I don't see you getting away from it. I would bet $1250 and hopefully he realizes that you have a really strong hand and his A7 is no good.
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  #20  
Old 12-20-2005, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: JJ, early-mid tourney Party 20+2

[ QUOTE ]
Can I get a flop line from anyone? I'm saying that I think my best move is a big bet like pushing, or I suppose maybe 900. What would you do here?

I'll post what I did on the flop, and results later.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay here goes.

Alternatives, pushing, betting say 1/2, 2/3 or pot and checking.

judging by the action so far, villains range is a little foggy since the only info we have is his initial preflop 3 BB raise and his call to your reraise, then a check on the flop. This board has to be a little scary to villain for the same reason it is to you.

Scenario 1) Let's say villain has KK or QQ (1 club). The A would be intimidating to him but the draw to the nut or nearly nut flush as well as having a high pair could be a check/raise in waiting rather than betting out and having you fold (he is after all starting to become a short stack and hoping to double up). Don't think KK or QQ with a club would fold, so you are WB.

scenario 2) Let's say he has KK or QQ without a club. This is a spot where a push may be able to force villain off his hand. A on board and 3 to a suit.

scenario 3) Let's say villain has lower pair than your J's with a club. You are WA and a push could possibly scare him away (though with pot at 875 and him having to call off 1250 a donkey may think he has outs with club and call).

scenario 4) Ax, 1 club, he's gonna call no matter what (judging from preflop action) thinking he has enough outs if you have better Ax, leaving you with only 10 outs (close to 1.75:1, not favorable)

scenario 5) he has Ax, no club. some chance that he'll lay this down. Reads would help to know what he would do here, again this is scary board for him (although he can't possibly think you were re-raising with suited connectors, and would know you were on a draw). If he has strong A he'll probably call anything.

I think of all the hands that are possible, this early in the tournament, the only hands that call a push are a strong Ax, a set or a flush draw with KK or QQ (2 pair not likely from preflop action unless he is complete donkey).

I think a push makes your hand look a little weak like Ax and that you are trying to protect it and if he has AK, maybe AQ especially with club, he'll call. You can either keep this pot small or try and take it away right now. Right choice is probably to keep pot small, but I bet 500 and reevaluate from opponents play (probably going to call any push, because after all i am a donkey).
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