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  #1  
Old 11-21-2005, 02:53 PM
kosmicd21 kosmicd21 is offline
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Default AK out of position, long term strategy??

my question concerns picking up AK out of position in either SB or BB in $20 or $30 sngs (if that matters). Problem occurs during middle stages of STT when blinds are 50/100 or 75/150 and I still have an average stack of around 1400-1700. If there have been 2 or so limpers into the pot, what is the optimal strategy:
A. Raise between 3-4x the BB (4x when BB is 100) even though you know you'll probably get at least 1 call and will be playing the flop out of position? (if you miss the flop and make a continuation bet, you may get an all in behind you, and if the odds aren't right to call, the hand could've cost you many chips)
B. Raise more than 4x the BB (essentially committing myself to the pot) and basically taking down the blinds preflop. It should be noted that the cards have been dry for a while thus far and AK is the first real hand, so you may be wanting to gain something from it, or should the blinds be enough at this stage?
C. Limp or minraise so that you can build a pot in case you hit and are able to fold w/o a great loss if you miss?
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  #2  
Old 11-21-2005, 03:01 PM
The Yugoslavian The Yugoslavian is offline
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Default Re: AK out of position, long term strategy??

Push is good in many situations. Definitely raise it up and like push any flop if it gets that far as it likely will be too big to fold with AK even if you miss. What you do is dependent on how the table is playing and exactly what the blinds and stacks are.

Yugoslav
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  #3  
Old 11-21-2005, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: AK out of position, long term strategy??

With a few limpers and stacksizes that arent rediculously deep (like 20+ BB both of you) which they extremely rarely are in STTs, you need to push this.

Because:
1. It can as you say get awkward to play postflop OOP with shallow stacks.

2. AK is one of the best hands preflop and youre basically not afraid of any other hand calling you.

3. If you move in and get called, you get to see all 5 cards 100% of the time, which is optimal for AK for obvious reasons.

4. You certainly dont mind picking up the blinds here, which you will do most of the time.
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  #4  
Old 11-21-2005, 03:50 PM
xJMPx xJMPx is offline
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Default Re: AK out of position, long term strategy??

[ QUOTE ]
It should be noted that the cards have been dry for a while thus far and AK is the first real hand, so you may be wanting to gain something from it, or should the blinds be enough at this stage?

[/ QUOTE ]

This stood out to me. I don't like getting cute with anything less than KK, and even then not too often.

As the blinds get high, picking them up with drawing hands like AK is the goal. Not only does in contribute to your stack, but it is also taking away from the smaller stacks increasing your chance of being ITM.
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  #5  
Old 11-21-2005, 04:26 PM
SonnyJay SonnyJay is offline
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Default Re: AK out of position, long term strategy??

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It should be noted that the cards have been dry for a while thus far and AK is the first real hand, so you may be wanting to gain something from it, or should the blinds be enough at this stage?

[/ QUOTE ]

This stood out to me. I don't like getting cute with anything less than KK, and even then not too often.

As the blinds get high, picking them up with drawing hands like AK is the goal. Not only does in contribute to your stack, but it is also taking away from the smaller stacks increasing your chance of being ITM.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very important. If you have t1700 or so with blinds at 75/150 and 2 limpers to you in the SB, "just picking up the blinds" is a huge gain. Adding t525 without a showdown isn't insignificant at all.

And building on what DevinLake said, AK is not a hand to get cute with. It's a very good hand preflop, and on about a third of the flops you'll be playing fairly confidently. The other two thirds of the time you'll find it very hard to play to any resistance, especially OOP. I think it's a better plan to push and try to take the pot without a showdown.

There are arguments for limping AK from the SB, but not for the idea of trapping with it, which is the idea I got from the OP.

For what it's worth, I'm not getting cute with AA or KK either. There's too many people in the pot to just limp, in my opinion. In summary, this just isn't a situation to be thinking about trapping.

-SonnyJay
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  #6  
Old 11-21-2005, 05:33 PM
kosmicd21 kosmicd21 is offline
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Default Re: AK out of position, long term strategy??

wow, thank you very much for the replies thus far, they have been very insightful. And for the third option when I talk of min-raising or limping, i'm not doing it with intentions of trapping, but rather so I can get away from the hand easily if I completely miss the flop and others are betting at it, thereby leaving me with decent chips still. Also, what is instead of 1700 I had a nice stack (say >2500), is the proper play still to take down the blinds with a huge preflop raise?
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  #7  
Old 11-21-2005, 06:22 PM
Socrates Socrates is offline
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Default Re: AK out of position, long term strategy??

You want to make sure you know what your opponent is up to before playing AK oop are they big stack or are they short and already pot commited?). With only the big stack left you need to consider whether he has a bigger hand than you or whether you are a slight underdog (e.g. a coinflip) - either jam for fold equity or get rid of it (chances are he's behind you at this point in time with his raise). There is no way you can just call with AK oop.
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  #8  
Old 11-21-2005, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: AK out of position, long term strategy??

I like a push here with t1700. Like the others noted, picking up t525 is massive for you and if you happen to get called by AQ or some small pockets, you're either going to be ecstatic or have a great chance to add a great deal to your stack.

With blinds like that, you need to be playing a hand like AK very aggressively. Since no one showed strength, you'll probably take down the blinds but, again, that's a great outcome.

I don't like the mindset of just raising a little so that you can get away from a missed flop. It's bad for business. You either have the best hand right now or you're 5 to 6 to win unless someone limped with either AA or KK.

Push it, take the blinds, and look for more chances to play aggressively.

re: t2500 - for me, it just depends on the stack sizes of the limpers and how they've played up to that point. I'd probably make it 500 to go there. You'll probably still pick up the blinds but you've bet enough that if it induces an all in from a short-ish stack, you can easily re-evaluate (i.e. call him).
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