Small pair at loose table

MDO67 · #1 05-30-2005, 05:03 PM

I am really trying to improve my post flop play. After posting a thread where you all told me to reduce the VP$IP to around 20-21, I have become a much tighter player preflop. This,of course, shines the spotlight on my questionable post flop play.

Here is a hand I played a few minutes ago along with the thoughts I was having while playing the hand. Please let me know where my mistakes are so I can get better. 60% of the table is seeing the flop and the hands shown have often been junk. I was not at the table long enough to get any reads on the villain.

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: MDO67 is UTG+1 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MDO67 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB :#A500AF(Villain)/ completes, BB checks.

Here I am following the loose SSH chart - with 8 people seeing the flop it makes sense.

Flop: (8 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 players)
Villain checks, BB checks, MDO67 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Button calls, Villain calls, BB folds, MDO67 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Now I realize that anyone holding a single card that appeared on the flop has me beat. I still call because the bet came from late position and there is no certainty that I am behind.

Turn: (7 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Villain checks, MDO67 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Button checks.

I am now holding 2 pair (which may win UI), have 2 outs to a full house, and have 4 outs to the ass end of the straight (We'll discount that back to only 2 outs). If I counted correctly that means I need 10.5:1 in order to call. (During play I forgot to discount so I thought I needed about 7:1)

River: (7 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
Villain bets, MDO67 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds.

I hit it now and realize that I am at the bottom end. I call and pray that there is no 8 out there.

Final Pot: 10 BB

What do I need to change here? Should I get away from the pair on the flop?

istewart · #2 05-30-2005, 05:07 PM

I would fold the flop. Getting 11:1 is great for your gutshot/set draw, and you do have the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] which helps, but:

If you make your set there's a four-straight just sitting there, and if you make your straight it's the bottom end, which is likely to be a split on good days, and a losing hand on bad days.

Jacob_Gilliam · #3 05-30-2005, 05:41 PM

You have a horrible hand, fold the flop. There is almost no chance that you have best hand, and every card that comes either hurts you, or improves your hand yet creates a better hand for someone else. Also, when you say that on the turn you have two pair, so does anyone else who connected at all, plus other crappy pocket pairs. Your right to call before the flop if that many people are seeing it, but post flop play is really fishy here.

MDO67 · #4 05-30-2005, 05:45 PM

Thanks...I need to realize that the hand is only good if I flop the set. Otherwise wait until a better hand to stay in.

I've been relatively tight preflop and a great big TUNAFISH after the flop. Trying to change it with the help of 2+2.

- Mark