River bet - AK unimproved

StellarWind · #1 12-18-2005, 03:49 PM

5/10 6-max (4-handed)

Villain is 47/21, postflop he is loose and moderately aggressive.

Hero is BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Preflop: Button raises and Hero calls.

Flop (4 SB): Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, and Button calls.

Turn (4 BB) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets and Button calls.

River (6 BB) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets ...

Spicymoose · #2 12-18-2005, 03:56 PM

I keep seeing people not 3-betting from their BB HU, and don't fully understand it. Obviously it is for deception, but are we really making up for all the value we are missing preflop? Maybe...

I like the rest. I don't valuebet my A high often enough, and I think this is a perfect place to do it. He will call down with his low aces. Since he is somewhat agressive, I also think you would have heard more from him if he had a pair. Some guys slowdown after the check raise, but a lot more either 3-bet or raise the turn.

Wynton · #3 12-18-2005, 04:05 PM

So many of these questions come down to interpreting the stats and reads in the OP.

My interpretation of that information is that this villain won't fold a pair, might fold AJ or worse, might actually bluff-raise the river and very possibly could be induced to bluff at the river if you check. If this interpretation is correct, I think it's better to c/r.

And I also would like to know why you didn't 3-bet pf. Isn't a big advantage of 3-betting pf the fact that you are more likely to win the pot ui without a showdown?

StellarWind · #4 12-18-2005, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I keep seeing people not 3-betting from their BB HU, and don't fully understand it. Obviously it is for deception, but are we really making up for all the value we are missing preflop? Maybe...

[/ QUOTE ]
Scenario I: I 3-bet preflop and he calls. I autobet the flop.

Scenario II: I call preflop and checkraise his autobet.

Count the bets in each scenario. There is no lost value. The pot size is the same in each case and Villain must make a decision about my flop aggression.

What are the differences between the two approaches?

1. I don't have to checkraise in scenario II. If I don't like the flop I can fold or just call and save some money. Or I can play for more by calling and going for a turn checkraise or turn donk-3bet. Scenario II gives me extra options after I see the flop.

2. Some players don't autobet and scenario II may be a poor choice against them.

3. Scenario II is very deceptive. Even if Villain knows I do stuff like this he doesn't know what I have. Hands like Q8 and J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] greatly outnumber monsters. He has no idea what I'm doing here because I play so many hands the same way. Scenario II has strong Shania as part of an overall headsup blind defense strategy.

Note that if Villain decides to counter my checkraise strategy by giving random free cards on the flop I may throw a party to celebrate. His flop autobet is a huge moneymaker because I'm an unlucky player and most of my blind defenses are closer to J8 than AK.

So that's why the preflop is the way it is. But I posted this as a river hand.

PantherZ · #5 12-18-2005, 04:31 PM

I think it's important to 3-bet your monsters from the BB against blind steals, as well as some of your lesser hands. They're going to expect you to be 3-betting lighter than normal on steals, so you might as well get the most out of your premium hands. I save the deception for cases like AA in the BB against an UTG raise when everyone else folds.

StellarWind · #6 12-18-2005, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My interpretation of that information is that this villain won't fold a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't a big advantage of 3-betting pf the fact that you are more likely to win the pot ui without a showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]
Think about these quotes together and then remember that I have AK. If he folds postflop I doubt he's made a significant mistake.

numeri · #7 12-18-2005, 04:33 PM

Very nice post, Stellar. I likes.

River is tough. Against this player, it seems like you make as much by checking and calling as you would by value betting. That 6BB pot is pretty tempting for a 'moderately aggressive' postflop player to take a stab at.

So basically I have nothing to offer.

Wynton · #8 12-18-2005, 04:38 PM

I'm sorry but I find pf more interesting.

You mention one reason for just calling pf is so you have the option of getting away from a flop you don't like without investing more money. But how many flops are we not going to like? With AK, I'd feel comfortable betting virtually any flop, in a steal situation.

Wynton · #9 12-18-2005, 04:40 PM

Oops, I just noticed I accidentally said c/r in original post. I meant c/c the river.

Spicymoose · #10 12-18-2005, 04:59 PM

So do you not 3-bet your high PPs also?

I think you reasoning has merits, but you neglected to mention the times that he caps it. Against LAGGY opponents, we are gaining value on his cap. Furthermore, we gain a ton of information about his hand, while he still doesn't know all that much about ours.

I guess we don't have THAT much value when he caps, but if you are doing this with something like KK, or AA (like flawless_victory did in another thread), I think we are missing out on significant value from the times villain is unable to cap.