PLO8 Hand 2

[dcasper70]

Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO checks, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

UTG calls [$0.25].
<font color="#666666">fold</font>
EP calls [$0.25].
<font color="#666666">fold</font>
MP calls [$0.25].
LP calls [$0.25].
CO checks.
Yours_Truly raises [$2.10].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>
UTG calls [$1.85].
EP calls [$1.85].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>

Am I thinking correctly: Great high only hand with 2 of the aces. Raising may give it to me now, but callers+position+good flop is nice too. Or in PLO8, should I just be seeing a cheap flop with this (6-max is clouding my vision here)?

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG bets [$3].
EP folds.
Yours_Truly....

Well, I'm 90% sure I need to dump this and 100% sure I didn't [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. Why? Well, because I played the role of Captain Donk today.....

Can anyone tell me if sticking around is a good idea? Might help the self-esteem....

[sy_or_bust]

AQsAJs is deceiving (and pretty weak). You really need to not raise preflop and push hard on a good flop. AA without low is NOT a strong hand heads-up, and earns money postflop.

See, if Villain makes an 'atrocious' call check out his rags:

cards EV
Ad Qd Ah Jh 0.506
3s 2s 4c 9d 0.494

Granted you will have an easier time of it postflop if Villain is sane, but the point is to earn money from the weak players in this game. It's not a good raise. On the other hand, change the jack to a 3 and you're a 2:1 favorite a lot.

[Tailgunner]

[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone tell me if sticking around is a good idea? Might help the self-esteem....

[/ QUOTE ]

Call 3 to win 12.8 here? 14 cards work well for you, so you've got the pot odds and it looks good on the surface, but you're committing yourself to the hand and facing an almost certain bet on the turn where the implied odds are likely to be against you even if you hit well. Since even a high card on the turn may leave you drawing (and I emphasize drawing) to a split, get out now.

Only time I'd consider calling the flop is if the stacks were in my favor and I was confident he might try to check-raise me on the turn (or lead out with another small bet.) I'd have to be feeling pretty frisky to throw away $3 on that gamble.

I agree with not raising preflop also, you need to hit really well for it to profit and you want a large field along to pay you off when it does.

[emptyshell]

Call preflop, fold the flop. 2 low cards and a bettor mean you are in bad shape. Costs you 0.25, no more.

If you play it the way you did, you have to raise max, not call, on the flop. If UTG has a weak low draw (which his smallish bet suggests), he may have a difficult time continuing.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
AQsAJs is deceiving (and pretty weak). You really need to not raise preflop and push hard on a good flop. AA without low is NOT a strong hand heads-up, and earns money postflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Stop being a donkey, AA without a low is a strong hand preflop. It is always a favourite against any other O8 hand that calls a raise preflop.
I will never understand why people get such stupid ideas into their head about what is a good O8 hand. It's probably because players just play terrible post flop.
You should be pushing small edges just as much as big edges, failure to do so costs you money and probably shows you to be extremely weak. If you're not raising AA double suited preflop you're just going to get utterly destroyed when you do raise peddling the nuts.

[sy_or_bust]

You clearly enjoy pushing 52/48 favorites preflop. I would not recommend this. It is much easier to get in for a flop and push your stronger edges, when you will find players willing to call with the worst of it. You don't automatically give up an edge on one street by waiting to exploit another.

If the flop defines my hand, which is a pretty static 52/48 over an opponent's range (sometimes it's 50/50, sometimes 55/45, etc.), I have little desire to push this edge unless I know something concrete about how my opponent's play postflop. If I can isolate and expect to win with a pot bet on most flops, great. But your preflop reraise gives away your hand and often sets very difficult decisions on the flop against all kinds of opponents. The doublesuitedness makes AAQJ much stronger than other varieties of AA-high hands, but still not an automatic or definite raise here.

The preflop raise is not even approaching mandatory, and nobody is a nut-peddling donkey for calling preflop. It is fun to assume stupid ideas, I'll grant you that.

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
You should be pushing small edges just as much as big edges, failure to do so costs you money and probably shows you to be extremely weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to point out this situation in particular. It is bad logic, pretty much flat out wrong. Theory of Poker presents the concept of waiting on small edges to 1) get greater information and 2) exploit a much larger edge on the next betting round. This can be not only lower variance, but higher EV, especially when your opponent plays weakly postflop. Reason being, you can get away from situations that are marginal at best and push clear +EV situations against an opponent who will pay you off when he's getting the worst of it.

I've always seen this as the best way to 'bust' most of the terrible players of PLO/8. This is not nut-peddling, but simply logic, and smart gambling, and far more appealing (to me, at least) than gambling with small edges against weak players (high-variance / high-luck situations).

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should be pushing small edges just as much as big edges, failure to do so costs you money and probably shows you to be extremely weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to point out this situation in particular. It is bad logic, pretty much flat out wrong. Theory of Poker presents the concept of waiting on small edges to 1) get greater information and 2) exploit a much larger edge on the next betting round. This can be not only lower variance, but higher EV, especially when your opponent plays weakly postflop. Reason being, you can get away from situations that are marginal at best and push clear +EV situations against an opponent who will pay you off when he's getting the worst of it.

I've always seen this as the best way to 'bust' most of the terrible players of PLO/8. This is not nut-peddling, but simply logic, and smart gambling, and far more appealing (to me, at least) than gambling with small edges against weak players (high-variance / high-luck situations).

[/ QUOTE ]

You just don't understand how much money you win without ever going to a showdown. I also think you fail to understand how few players play as badly as you claim.
As I talk on one of my hand histories on my site, as the chance of you winning the hand increases, so does the chance that your opponents will recognise this and fold. I'm all for shoving big edges, you are doing nothing other than stating the obvious by saying this. However someone who only does this is called a rock. I believe most players lose a ton of money because they don't shove small edges also. From experience I will shove a lot of coin flips because i know maybe around a 3rd of the time, someone else has the other side of the coin and will fold their hand. I make a lot of money from the players like you who will fold because they want to wait for a better opportunity (and when they do get one, they are likely still only flipping a coin)

Take this hand, my AAKK vs AQ23
http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?p...amp;hand=98585
$25 goes in preflop, me as a 55/45 favourite
Flop J72 rainbow $48 goes in on the flop, me as a 56/44 favourite
turn 3 $36 goes in on the turn me as a 35/65 dog.

My return off the $54 that was bet by me was $13.75 preflop
$26.88 on the flop and $12.6 on the turn totalling $53.23

All my raising preflop and on the flop gave me the odds to call the rest off on the turn.
So get this, my opponent called off a significant portion of his stack preflop and flop, just so by the river he could be flipping a coin with me, had he missed his low on the turn, he would have shoved the rest in also as a dog.
When you say you like to wait for "better situations" you're probably one of those guys, who plays A2, waits for low to hit and thinks he will make his money freerolling high. The truth of the matter is, you will probably end up putting a load of money in trying to hit your low just so you can , at best, be flipping a coin. At worst he has just called off all his stack with a big draw to a quarter of the pot on the flop.

I can guarantee you I know more about "busting players" at PLO8 than most and I've played against enough people who have read everything I've ever written and still busted them because they thought they knew how I played.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting into high-variance situations, an edge is an edge is an edge, plus it does wonders for your table image. If you've only got $50 to your name however, maybe you should go back to the penny games.

Hell this guy found out the hard way, when he thought he knew how i was playing....
http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?p...amp;hand=94042

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
You just don't understand how much money you win without ever going to a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, and a strong argument for preflop raising (but not necessarily iso-raising). I'm at 7% right now, looking for even more situations to raise.

The rest I either disagree with, or count for obvious (though I haven't yet looked at your sample hands). I'm not in the mood for a pissing match, and I'm sure you know what you're doing. I don't play that way, and don't think I'm missing out on anything.

Don't assume things that make your points more convenient, like "you're probably one of those guys who..." and proceed to give some classic weak-tight example. I have much to learn about PLO/8, but it seems we all do. But if you're doing well, you're doing well, and hand history examples are always welcome. Good luck.

[emptyshell]

I only looked at the first hand, but what you did there was exploit an error your opponent made on the flop. After your preflop reraise, your hand is pretty much defined, and a good player would know to only continue on the flop if they were ahead of you.

It is not a theoretical advantage to push the 55/45 edge preflop with so much money behind (if you can get close to allin, great). Against a good player you'll be putting money in with the worst of it postflop, because, with their A23x hand, it is a lot easier for them to gauge where they stand, especially if they know you have AA. I guess I'm just restating the "betability" idea that Badger mentions.