PLO8 Hand 2

[Ribbo]

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I only looked at the first hand, but what you did there was exploit an error your opponent made on the flop. After your preflop reraise, your hand is pretty much defined,

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You're correct that my hand is defined, but only 2 of the 4 cards are defined. My opponent is in big trouble should I have a low to go with my AA and even without one, I still have a 13% edge on the flop.
This is why you have to push AA on that flop, not because at best all you have is a 6% edge, but because at best all your opponent is is slightly behind.

If you can't shove because you don't have a big edge, then how about instead you start thinking "my opponent can't call if I bet because at best he is slightly behind"
It's this negative thinking about the game that I really can't understand.

[sy_or_bust]

I think the point is that a good (or simply aggressive) player will often do one of two things on the flop, given he knows you'll make this raise with all sorts of AA hands:

1) Fold
2) Reraise pot

#2 is very difficult, and you are at a distinct disadvantage. Your opponent knows the meat of your hand, and may put in that big raise with low draw air, some high+low potential, or simply a much better hand. You will make the wrong decision a significant portion of the time.

[Ribbo]

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I think the point is that a good (or simply aggressive) player will often do one of two things on the flop, given he knows you'll make this raise with all sorts of AA hands:

1) Fold
2) Reraise pot

#2 is very difficult, and you are at a distinct disadvantage. Your opponent knows the meat of your hand, and may put in that big raise with low draw air, some high+low potential, or simply a much better hand. You will make the wrong decision a significant portion of the time.

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His reraising of the pot on the flop can only legitimately come from a "better hand" since he only knows 2 cards of my hand. Reraising as an underdog with nothing more than a big low draw wont work as me holding a deuce or trey to go with my AA destroys his odds savagely. The mere fact that I don't hold a low means I'm only slight favourite and one could claim if he reraised I may fold putting his value over 50%. But because I believe he can only reraise with a very strong hand due to the unknown factors of the other 2 cards in my hand, it makes folding very easy to a reraise, especially because he knows I will gamble, he will only reraise with hands that give him a nice edge.

[sy_or_bust]

Careful. He knows you are isolating with all sorts of AA hands, which certainly doesn't mean AA2 or AA3. He is fully capable of reraising the pot with a nut low draw and meager high chances, just as he will play the same with a hand that has you crushed both ways.

This is a terrible situation for you because you lack information. It's also a great bluffing opportunity for a strong opponent, especially when your plan is to fold on a 2-low flop like this. You do not consider this.

Another scenario - A player just calls on the flop, and a low gets there on the turn. He reraises pot.

In both spots your opponent is thinking on the third level, and by doing so has excellent chances to push you off at least half the pot.

[Ribbo]

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This is a terrible situation for you because you lack information.

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Not at all, I have all the information I need to know which is my hand in the long term against a random schmoe earns me money. The chance of him holding anything that destroys AA2 are so unlikely you don't even factor it in, especially since he raised preflop which puts him on A2. The chance of his other 2 cards dominating my AA is so low that I can bet the pot and him knowing I have AA, plus a chance of a low draw makes it an easy fold unless he has a strong hand.

[sy_or_bust]

Of course you bet the pot.

This has nothing to do with the times you are reraised pot, which was the only situation I discussed..
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[dcasper70]

Not only has it been fun watching you guys go back & forth, but very, very enlightening to see multiple sides of this debated quite nicely.

FWIW, After opponent's flop bet, he only had $4 left, so I raised him all-in.

In hindsight, I'm starting to think it wasn't as bad a play as I originally thought. I'm rather certain nobody can guess his hand, might even be tough for you to guess 3 of his cards...

[gergery]

In general I agree with Ribbo but I think there is a little more to it.

If you are out of position raising a lot with A2, AA, A3 hands and your opponent is calling you, and you are continuation betting a lot of the time, then you are giving your opponent great implied odds.

It doesn’t help you much if your hand is a 55/45 favorite over your opponent if your opponent will be folding much of the time on the 55% flops and reraising much of the time on his 45% flops.

The fact that you might have AA2 is offset by the fact that most of the time you won’t have that as it’s only dealt <1% of the time and you are raising ~10% or whatever.

Just like in holdem if a tight early position raiser with AA comes in strong I’ll call with 22. I either hit my set or fold. Ribbo would say then play other hands so people don’t know you have AA. But, that is essentially advocating a semi-loose, aggressive style which is a winning style and probably the highest EV style, but it requires good judgment and postflop skills which not everyone has, which is probably the main reason it is not correct for all to play that style.

And players could very well beat a higher limit game for a higher overall earn rate than a lower limit game thus making it correct for them to play in that game, but still be willing to give up a small amount of EV to avoid higher variance if they for example are prone to tilt, or have continuing $ withdrawal requirements.

-greg

[emptyshell]

I ignore the possibility of AA2; just like we are ignoring the possibility your opponent has two pair and the nut low draw on the flop.

This is the minimum flop for me to call (actually I'd raise) with your opponent's hand: js 7d 3c. Then I'd have the EV advantage when the real money goes in.

[Wintermute]

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I ignore the possibility of AA2; just like we are ignoring the possibility your opponent has two pair and the nut low draw on the flop.

This is the minimum flop for me to call (actually I'd raise) with your opponent's hand: js 7d 3c. Then I'd have the EV advantage when the real money goes in.

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I hereby reject the notion of cobreity. check raise then fold. On the river. unless you have the 2nd nuts, then raise the max and buy it
oyhrteidr, the correct play would be to re=pot preflop and then check the flop, bet out on the turn, and check-raise the river for value