1st hand - Flop decision with AK - Page 3

lastchance · #21 08-05-2005, 09:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good discussion guys.
One point nobody mentioned yet is the presence of the 2 players behind me. I guess that doesn't change the situation much in this case, but what about when the flop is 2-suited? I'll post the results later tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]
If the flop is 2 suited, I think calling becomes a lot worse especially with opponents behind you.

RhitTaker · #22 08-05-2005, 10:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good discussion guys.
One point nobody mentioned yet is the presence of the 2 players behind me. I guess that doesn't change the situation much in this case, but what about when the flop is 2-suited? I'll post the results later tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]
Two-suited, and it's a no-brainer push that's not worthy of discussion.

#23 08-06-2005, 03:41 AM

The fact that there are two behind you is the driving reason to push, IMO. If you just call, they have decent (although still probably improper) odds to draw to whatever they may hold. Get them out, get on w/ the next hand right now, says I.

lastchance · #24 08-06-2005, 03:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that there are two behind you is the driving reason to push, IMO. If you just call, they have decent (although still probably improper) odds to draw to whatever they may hold. Get them out, get on w/ the next hand right now, says I.

[/ QUOTE ]
They already have to pay t225, over a fourth of their stack. At most, they have 4 outs, and they're not getting to see a river.

I really doubt you can make that call profitable.

curtains · #25 08-06-2005, 03:47 AM

You should move allin, I think anything else is pretty ridiculous, especially folding. Calling is exotic but I just don't like it somehow. I think you will get a caller when you move allin, I don't see why you have to be greedy/creative. If the lunatic bet into 3 opponents for 225 and plans to fold, then Id be extremely surprised.

#26 08-06-2005, 03:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
They already have to pay t225, over a fourth of their stack. At most, they have 4 outs, and they're not getting to see a river.

I really doubt you can make that call profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true. I think the fact that I play mostly on Stars and mostly at lower levels is distorting my thinking a little here. On my usual games, A) the play is worse, and people call w/ four outs or less all the time; and B) the stacks are deeper, which also means looser play early.

Upon further review, I can understand the math and reasoning behind merely calling here, but I'd probably still push, in part because I'd just rather end it now, probably with a nearly dead-drawing caller, and in part because anything else just seems like FPS.

lastchance · #27 08-06-2005, 03:56 AM

One of the reasons calling is good is because you can get someone drawing thin to overcall you, with very little chance of beating you.

Party play is bad too. We definitely think that we have Villain beat, and he's giving us his stack, but we also want to make sure that Villain does give us our stack.

45suited · #28 08-06-2005, 03:57 AM

Honestly I could never see calling here. Since you're going to play the hand, my only play here is to push. Especially with the players yet to act behind you. This pot is getting pretty big, I don't see any reason to get fancy (we're dealing with 800 chip stacks here).

If the original bettor has a worse ace, he's likely calling you anyway. I know about the odds and wanting to make people call with incorrect odds, etc... but I think the concept of taking down sizeable pots NOW is a bit underrated. Push now, if you get a caller, fine. But winning the pot and getting a nice stack early in the game is fine too.

It just seems like whenever I try to get a little fancy with my play, it bites me in the ass.

I don't know if my style is "incorrect" but I really don't want two or three callers seeing the turn. If I get one guy calling my push, fine. If I take this pot now, that's okay too. But I don't want someone (incorrectly even) thinking that they're priced into calling and then sucking out on me. I'd rather win a good sized pot than lose a huge one here.

curtains · #29 08-06-2005, 04:06 AM

Im sure strong arguments could be made for flat calling here...I know I'd never do it. The pot is just so gigantic (Its going to be about 1800 once the original bettor calls the allin) that I don't want to let someone see a turn for 200 when they may have a few outs to beat me. And don't forget that plenty of these times, our idiot opponents will call a bet and an allin with some crap ace. You know you've seen it happen many times.

It just feels too exotic to me but it may be okay..