Okay, Ed, I raised. - Page 2

timprov · #11 12-08-2005, 07:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know much about PT stats, however W$WSF and WSD and W$SD for me are:

33.6 W$WSF
32.8 WTSD
57.7 W$SD

Over 3000 hands sure, but whats considered "running good" or "average" interms of these figures?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your stats aren't off norms enough for 3000 hands to mean much. You could be folding too many winners, running a little bad, or just have a draw-heavy hand distribution.

The key stat for determining running bad is W$WSF, which should generally by 35+ unless you're playing in extremely loose games. Mine tends about 38 for 1/2 through 3/6, though I tend to be on the extreme. Values are generally higher for higher stakes, lower for lower.

WTSD and W$SD are included as a check, because folding too much or too little postflop can skew W$WSF. WTSD should generally be around 35, and W$SD in the 50-53 range. Above 55 coupled with a low WTSD might mean you're folding somewhat too easily, and that could account for the small deficiency in W$WSF. Over 3000 hands, though, it could just mean you're getting more drawing hands than expected, folding when you miss and winning when you hit.

This is limit only. NL generally has lower W$WSF, WTSD, and substantially higher W$SD.

w_alloy · #12 12-08-2005, 08:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know much about PT stats, however W$WSF and WSD and W$SD for me are:

33.6 W$WSF
32.8 WTSD
57.7 W$SD

Over 3000 hands sure, but whats considered "running good" or "average" interms of these figures?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be almost impossible to win at 5/10 6 max+ with these stats, and I think 3k hands is enough to tell. Im assuming these numbers are from 6m from your location, if not, i dont know what relevence this has.

You are playing far to weak postflop. You are folding winners and hands with proper outs, and not playing marginal hands strong enough. If I saw someone with those stats in my game, I would pick on them all day, isolating with marginal hands and bullying postflop.

Then again, I'm sure 1/2 requires a different approach. I'm just not sure how different.

EStreet20 · #13 12-08-2005, 08:58 AM

Please explain why your aggression on the turn and river has gone down despite more Preflop raising. It's only a slight change but it sounds like you're not betting out enough after a PFR.

Good luck,
Matt

Zetack · #14 12-08-2005, 11:12 AM

For my first year or so here I rarely read anything outside of a strategy forum and certainly didn't post anywhere else. I don't do that much any more, not because its not valuable, but after a year of reading and posting about hands just about everyday, I finally got bored of reading other people's hands, and felt fairly comfortable with the decisions I was making at the tables.

Make the micro or SS forum your home. Read hand posts everyday. Contribute to them--this will cause you to think much more intently about hands than if you simply follow along with the discussion, even if in your head you pick out the line you would take.

Post hands yourself. Not just hands where you were unsure what to do, but hands where you think you were right.

Until you do this, I don't think you realize what a valuable exercize it is to get down and dirty with real hands that people encounter.

It may be you know all you need to know, but if you did I don't think we'd be seeing these posts from you.

And don't obsess about the numbers, that's just one step away from being results oriented. Strive to make the correct plays and the numbers will fall into place.

Good luck to you. The 1/2 is definitely beatable and if you keep working on it, you will beat it too and look back on this frustration as just one ultimately positive step on your poker journey.

--Zetack

POKhER · #15 12-08-2005, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont know much about PT stats, however W$WSF and WSD and W$SD for me are:

33.6 W$WSF
32.8 WTSD
57.7 W$SD

Over 3000 hands sure, but whats considered "running good" or "average" interms of these figures?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be almost impossible to win at 5/10 6 max+ with these stats, and I think 3k hands is enough to tell. Im assuming these numbers are from 6m from your location, if not, i dont know what relevence this has.

You are playing far to weak postflop. You are folding winners and hands with proper outs, and not playing marginal hands strong enough. If I saw someone with those stats in my game, I would pick on them all day, isolating with marginal hands and bullying postflop.

Then again, I'm sure 1/2 requires a different approach. I'm just not sure how different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol fair enough, Well i've reviewed some 5/10 and watched some videos i tend to agree with majority of decisions but ill check my stats at 10k anyhow.

How can you tell i fold hands with proper outs? I dont see how anyone can assume this?

What are yout 5/10 W$WSF and W$SD and WTSD then?

Cheers Tapirboy also.
POKhER

SoSo · #16 12-08-2005, 11:19 AM

perseverance.

MarkL444 · #17 12-08-2005, 11:57 AM

if you are having touble winning, i dont think raising more is the answer. its easier to beat the game (if only beat it a little) with a more passive style

Guthrie · #18 12-08-2005, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain why your aggression on the turn and river has gone down despite more Preflop raising. It's only a slight change but it sounds like you're not betting out enough after a PFR.

Good luck,
Matt

[/ QUOTE ]
Easy. I get run over on the flop at an alarming rate, and betting out on the turn and river into four opponents who will never fold doesn't seem to do any good.

Guthrie · #19 12-08-2005, 02:35 PM

I'll readily admit I have postflop problems, but I'm completely at a loss on how to find or fix them. The biggest problem I've identified is that I win the small pots and lose the big ones, over and over. Unfortunately, I can't find any way in PokerTracker to confirm this, and I don't know what to do about it even if I could.

So I've resorted to trying to cut losses, but this is counter to what Ed says, and I believe, that I shouldn't be folding a 15 or 20 BB pot for one bet when there's a decent chance I'll win it. I could have easily saved enough bets on the river to make up for my losses, but if I folded every time a third flush or straight card, or an ace hits on the river, how much would I have also given up in winnings? I don't find that check box in PT.

I post hands, people agree with the way I played it, or, more often, encourage me to put even more money into a pot against opponents who will never fold.

It could be tilt, but I doubt it. I tilt, but only for a few seconds, and I really don't think it's affecting my play. My table demeanor runs more Phil Ivey than Phil Hellmuth. Frustration, however, is another matter.

I won consistently at .25/.50 and .50/1 over 40K hands, and I've won when taking shots at 2/4, enough to consider abandoning 1/2 and moving up. I hesitate to do this, however, since "If you can't beat 1/2 you can't beat 2/4." I'm also winning enough at the 22s to cover my 1/2 losses. Maybe I'm just not a limit player.

I've read all the books, SSHE cover to cover about five times, and I refer to it daily. I transcribed the starting hands chart to a useable format and used it constantly until I was able to break away from it based on table texture, but I still have it handy. I transcribed all the hands from the "Evaluating the Flop" section into a three-ring binder so I can refer to them on the fly when needed.

Here are some hands from the last session posted. They are fairly typical of the hands I get involved with and can't seem to win.

Is it still MUBS when they always have it?

Hand 1. SB is 67/13, Button is 45/12.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: Great for me, but I would have continuation bet anyway.

Turn: Did the SB hit his flush or trips? I raise to find out.

River: Maybe it was the button who is slowplaying, or did he just hit his weak ace? If I posted this in Micro Limits I'm sure the advice would be to "reraise the donk!" but maybe the constant hammering has turned me into Lee Jones, so I just call to see his flush as cheaply as possible.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Hand 2. Villain is 42/0.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Maybe I should have raised preflop to get my PFR up, but it seems to me I want to see the flop cheaply with A2s. If I flop an ace I'm not going to win a kicker war, so I call.

Flop: My first instinct is to open-fold since I know I'm beat by any ace, but that's not the 2+2 way. So I evaluate the hand. I have a backdoor nut flush draw, a backdoor nut straight draw. I already have top pair, but no kicker. If the board pairs, however, then nobody's kicker matters. So I bet to see what shakes out. UTG raises. When donks flop a flush, straight, or trips, they always wait for the turn to raise. Always. But that's MUBS, right? Maybe he was just has an ace, I paired my kicker and he didn't, so I 3-bet.

Turn: All my backdoor draws are gone, but I now have two pair. I'll beat any two pair unless someone has aces and something other than deuces. So I bet again.

River: Has to be a blank. Surely nobody was drawing to a gutshot wheel on this board. UTG bets. Do I call to see the showdown as cheaply as possible, or do I take the 2+2 way and raise? I raise. He calls. Maybe I was right about his ace. He'd 3-bet the straight, right?

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, Button folds, UTG caps, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

Hand 3. Villain is 30/15.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: I'm behind to AK, AQ, QQ, KK, JJ, and he could have 3-bet any of those PF. If he has one of those, then maybe I should just check/call all the way down. But maybe he has TT, AJ, or with a PFR of 15, lots of other hands. I have TPGK, so I bet.

Turn: He really likes his hand so now we're in check/call to the showdown, right?

River: Now this is an interesting card, so I'll check/raise this donk. Oops. What did the LAG have that he would have checked here? It didn't even put me on tilt. It just amazed me, and sent me back to the books trying to find out what I'm doing wrong.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP1 3-bets, 6 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Hand 4. Villain is 30/15.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Same donk.

Flop: TPGK, that's it, but I raised PF, so I'm definitely betting out here. They all come along. Great. More money for me.

Turn: MUBS again, but I resist the urge to open-fold, and lead out. Nobody raises. Maybe just this one time nobody has an ace.

River: Okay, I'm beat by a lousy, lowly deuce, but I'm trying very hard to stop giving up every time the river completes a flush or straight, so I bet.

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP2 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Hand 5. Villain is 36/0.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: The dreaded ace on the flop, with four loose opponents. One of them has it. I know it. You know it. We all know it. But I'm rather obligated to bet out here. The one who has it should raise, and some of the rest of them should fold, right? After all I raised PF, so maybe I have an ace too.

Turn: Nobody folded. They never do. Only three of them can have an ace, and I've actually seen that happen in this situation. More than once. In any event, I'm done sweetening their pot, and decide to just call it down as long as nobody's raising.

River: There's that flush and straight again. At least I'll get the satisfaction of seeing the ragged ace get beat by somebody's miracle card on the river.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

Hand 6. Villain is 30/5.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: Only two opponents this time, wow. Maybe nobody has an ace and nobody flopped the flush. Maybe BB is bluffing, on a flush draw, or maybe he has the ace. They always have the ace, right? So I raise.

Turn: He goes into ace-calldown-mode. He had the ace, I raised, so now he's just going to hunker down and see if his ace is bigger than mine. And I have him isolated, that's what raising is all about.

River: I'm beat. I know it, so why waste another bet?

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 6 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Hand 7. Villain is 24/8.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

I definitely have him isolated, but there's an ace on the flop. Can anyone really make a case here against open-folding?

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 5 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Hand 8. Villain is 16.5/4.85.

But sometimes I win.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
4 folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 3.25 BB

antifish225 · #20 12-08-2005, 02:42 PM

Just a general comment - preflop stats are important - however they are not the end all of evaluating anyones play - post flop decision making contributes to 80%+ of your winnings or losings - overall I think there is far too much focus on preflop stats when people are questioning thier winning/losing streaks - that said, glad you posted some hands instead of just stats (will take a look through and comment when I have a little more time) - AF