did I overplay this?

graarrg · #1 06-05-2005, 05:41 PM

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Omaha/8 (6 handed) converter

Preflop: teary-eyed boy is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP calls, teary-eyed boy raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP 3-bets, teary-eyed boy caps, SB calls, BB folds, MP calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP calls, teary-eyed boy raises, SB 3-bets, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls.

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

I figured that I had a redraw to the second nut flush, a full house, and already had the nut broadway on the turn.

help?

grandgnu · #2 06-05-2005, 06:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Omaha/8 (6 handed) converter

Preflop: teary-eyed boy is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP calls, teary-eyed boy raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP 3-bets, teary-eyed boy caps, SB calls, BB folds, MP calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP calls, teary-eyed boy raises, SB 3-bets, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls.

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

I figured that I had a redraw to the second nut flush, a full house, and already had the nut broadway on the turn.

help?

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks similar to how I would've played it. I might've been more agressive on the flop, but the possible low draw is a tad worrisome. Other than that, I wouldn've have been going anywhere.

If it's any consilation (I'm assuming you ran into the King-high flush?) I was playing 3-handed one time and had the nut high on the turn and the 2nd nut low on the river (there was only one foe in the pot with me) and on the river I had the 2nd nut low and 2nd nut high, and my opponent happened to have the top nuts for high and low, what can ya do? You figure 3 people at the table and only one opponent in the hand with you, that 2nd nuts for both high and low you're good at least one way, but I guess not always.

Tailgunner · #3 06-05-2005, 06:40 PM

Underplayed on the flop... raise and push off the weak high and low draws.

Nice push on the turn to get rid of any lingering low-only draws.

Overplayed on the river. Low hand + spade (possible nut) flush filled up. With four remaining in the pot, your best hope is most likely a split. Call the single bet, call or fold to the reraise depending on your read and SB's action.

grandgnu · #4 06-05-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Underplayed on the flop... raise and push off the weak high and low draws.

Nice push on the turn to get rid of any lingering low-only draws.

Overplayed on the river. Low hand + spade (possible nut) flush filled up. With four remaining in the pot, your best hope is most likely a split. Call the single bet, call or fold to the reraise depending on your read and SB's action.

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I think you're giving the Party $0.50/$1 players way too much credit. Granted, there's a possible low, and Hero has the 2nd nut high hand at this point.

I think more often than not, Hero is ahead on this river (against these particular opponents) and stands to make more money in the long-run betting it than check-calling.

Also, I don't feel the flop play was poor, since there are many draws out there that he's probably not going to be able to push anyone out to narrow the field. Instead, he'll just be creating a larger pot that he potentially may not win (depending on how the turn and river play out)

Tailgunner · #5 06-05-2005, 07:54 PM

Good points on the type of players you typically face at lower limits at PP, I tend to steer toward the conservative when critiquing... without having been at that table I'd rather err on the side of caution and encourage solid play than assume it was weak, even if it probably was [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I still would have been aggressive on the flop.. even facing a strong hand like KQ34ds he's about even to scoop and better than 2:1 to split. The only real danger is a double suited set with a nut low draw (not very likely, especially here... and a raise would probably flush this hand out.) Sure, they may call down and suckout with a weak hand, but they're going to have to pay to do it. If they want to keep sticking around playing for half the pot, they'll get eaten alive.

I'd agree with your analysis of the river if he had any kind of low hand... chances are good one of them stuck around to hit some kind of low, and without a nut high I'd be concerned about being too aggressive shooting for what is probably a split pot here.

grandgnu · #6 06-05-2005, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good points on the type of players you typically face at lower limits at PP, I tend to steer toward the conservative when critiquing... without having been at that table I'd rather err on the side of caution and encourage solid play than assume it was weak, even if it probably was [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I still would have been aggressive on the flop.. even facing a strong hand like KQ34ds he's about even to scoop and better than 2:1 to split. The only real danger is a double suited set with a nut low draw (not very likely, especially here... and a raise would probably flush this hand out.) Sure, they may call down and suckout with a weak hand, but they're going to have to pay to do it. If they want to keep sticking around playing for half the pot, they'll get eaten alive.

I'd agree with your analysis of the river if he had any kind of low hand... chances are good one of them stuck around to hit some kind of low, and without a nut high I'd be concerned about being too aggressive shooting for what is probably a split pot here.

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In my view, if I'm getting half the pot, I want the other three suckers (two whom are being quartered and one who is playing the 6th nut hand) to put more money into the pot for me to snag. Then again, I'm a crazy agressive mofo

Tailgunner · #7 06-05-2005, 08:52 PM

*If* you're getting half the pot a raise here nets you at best one additional bet profit.... if you're confident in the implied odds and think that play will pay off more than once in four at that particular table, by all means go for it.

A little too close to the line in this case to inspire a raise out of me, but these are the variations that make even world class poker exciting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

GooperMC · #8 06-05-2005, 09:03 PM

Flop: I raise here. It would be very difficult to not have the plurality of the PE here (more then anyone else). With the plurality of the PE and position I want to punish anyone who is drawing. Yes they probably are going to call anyway but you will make money every time they call w/o odds and you will lose money every time they call with odds. Raise to hurt their odds. It will build the pot for others to draw at on later streets and it will force you to make more crying calls but I still think that it is worth it.

Turn: I play the same way

River: This is actually a bad card for you. It makes a low which is likely to be out there and it takes away your nuts for the high. I would flat call. Here is my small EV calc (I know I am obsessed with these things but they put the hand into perspective for me).

Call and lose: -1BB
Call and win: +.5BB
Raise and lose: -3BB
Raise and win: 1BB

Let x be the probably of you losing then
-3x + 1(1 – x) = -1x + ½(1 - x)
x = .2

With my slightly faulty assumptions if you take ½ the pot more then 4:5 the raise will be a better play. Less then that a call will be a better play.

This calc is a little harsh to the raise (you will scoop occasionally, you will sometimes get raised and win, sometimes you opponent will be a total donk and not re-raise when you are beat ...) but I think that it puts the raise into perspective. You are going to have to win ½ the pot very frequently for the raise to be profitable.

grandgnu · #9 06-05-2005, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: I raise here. It would be very difficult to not have the plurality of the PE here (more then anyone else). With the plurality of the PE and position I want to punish anyone who is drawing. Yes they probably are going to call anyway but you will make money every time they call w/o odds and you will lose money every time they call with odds. Raise to hurt their odds. It will build the pot for others to draw at on later streets and it will force you to make more crying calls but I still think that it is worth it.

Turn: I play the same way

River: This is actually a bad card for you. It makes a low which is likely to be out there and it takes away your nuts for the high. I would flat call. Here is my small EV calc (I know I am obsessed with these things but they put the hand into perspective for me).

Call and lose: -1BB
Call and win: +.5BB
Raise and lose: -3BB
Raise and win: 1BB

Let x be the probably of you losing then
-3x + 1(1 – x) = -1x + ½(1 - x)
x = .2

With my slightly faulty assumptions if you take ½ the pot more then 4:5 the raise will be a better play. Less then that a call will be a better play.

This calc is a little harsh to the raise (you will scoop occasionally, you will sometimes get raised and win, sometimes you opponent will be a total donk and not re-raise when you are beat ...) but I think that it puts the raise into perspective. You are going to have to win ½ the pot very frequently for the raise to be profitable.

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Again, I think you underestimate how poorly a lot of these players are, especially at 0.50/1. They may re-raise you with the lower flush and there may be multiple low hands re-raising as well.

Against a tougher table, I'd play it different. But against these fish, I believe my 2nd nut high on the river is best the majority of the time, given that flop.

Buzz · #10 06-05-2005, 09:29 PM

Gooper - I think you have to figure that someone is going to make low here. If so, Hero has to win for high twice as often as Hero loses to want to initiate fresh money into the pot.

The way the betting has gone on the turn, it looks as though at least one of the opponents, and maybe both of them have the same ace-high straight as Hero.

Let's consider raising or not on the river.

If both opponents also have the ace-high straight, Hero cannot gain by raising, regardless of low.

If either opponent also has the ace-high straight, and if one of them also has low, Hero can only lose by raising.

Thus raising on the river is purely stupid.

Buzz