Advice From Current Pros- Quit a $100K Job? (long)

I know, another one of those going pro threads... but I'd like to hear from some people who may have been in a similar situation or have some insight on playing for a living.

A little background: I'm a long time lurker and occasional poster, however, since I'm going to be discussing win rates and money won in this thread, I started a new account to do it anonymously.

I started playing in Feb/Mar 2003. I made about $20K in 2003, $60K in 2004, and have made about $160K so far this year. I would guess I average about 15-20 hours per week (normally around 1 and half to 2 hours in the a.m. prior to work and 1-3 on the weekends).

I’m 33 and a lawyer with a firm in Arizona. I make $110,000 plus bonus-- which is typically between $5K and $10K each year. I’ve been with the firm for five years. It’s a good place to work as far as law firms go, but I really don’t enjoy the stuff that I’m doing (and haven’t for a couple years now). At the same time, the hours are pretty reasonable, and I probably put in 45-50 hours a week on average. If I left my job for a year or two, I could probably find another one pretty easily, though it would hard to find one that pays the same considering the gap in my resume.

A couple other notes that may be improtant: Between my wife and I we have about $400K in savings (including retirement accounts). So I have plenty of money saved up for expenses and wouldn't be hurt by a bad couple months.

On the other hand my wife and I just had our first baby less than two months ago and are having a house built which will be ready in April 2006. This will obviously add significantly to our expenses.

Speaking of expenses, I would estimate that they’ll be around $5500 to $6500 by spring of next year. Its a little hard estimate for sure, because I really don't know how much the baby will add to our costs. I just figure he's going to be pretty expensive. But anyway, that estimate includes the new mortgage payment and me paying for my family’s insurance (my firm does that now).

As for earnings, I anticipate that if I played more often (with results similar to my current averages) I could earn maybe $25K to $35K per month.

With all that in mind, here is where I’m looking for some help: the thought of playing professionally seems great to me. I like the idea of the freedom, the idea of never having to do the stuff I'm doing now again, the shorter hours, more money, etc. However, I’m wondering if there are some things I’m missing. For example:

* Have any of you who have worked regular jobs for years
found it difficult to stay at home and just play poker? (or have any of you quit your job only to realize that you hated playing poker as a pro?)


* When you played full time, did your win rates stay the same as when you were part time only? Did putting in more time cause your play to deteriorate? (Should I adjust my estimated monthly earn down?)

* I often see discussions from pros here who struggle to put in more than 25 hours. Were you anticipating playing more hours when you decided to play full time but weren’t able to do it?

* Did the fact that poker was your sole source of income add any additional pressure or effect your play?

* Any other important issues arise with respect to playing for a living that you didn’t anticipate prior to taking the plunge?


Thanks for your help with this.

[psyduck]

Post your winrate over # hands at specific limits. This will help people gauge whether or not you're running hot or are truly beating the game.

[PokerGoblin]

I think you already have made your mind up as to what you want to do.

I was laid off a while ago from my retail job and I decided to see if I could make my living playing poker instead of jumping into another job.

A few observations after about 5 months at it:

I have succeeded in paying my bills. So I guess that makes me a successful 'pro'. But, it has been difficult to establish a bankroll on top of that.

There is added pressure to win, and inevitable downswings are more stressful and depressing. The higher stakes you play, the bigger the downswings are. If you are as successful as you imply, then I assume you are aware of bankroll management, and other aspects of responsible gambling.

The hours can be a drag as well. You have to play when the games are good. It's not the kinda thing you can get up at 8 AM and do until 5PM and quit for the day. Playing poker for a living requires a lot of late nights and weekends.

What you may want to try is taking a sabattical from your firm. Give it a shot for three months or whatever, see how it works out. It sounds like you're bankrolled for it and you have the head for it, but you went to school for a long time to to get where you are. Going back to it is always a possibility, but it's better to leave the door open rather than jump in both feet first.

Hope that helps a little.

PG

[TStoneMBD]

this link is probably what youre looking for:

sthief thread

[Guthrie]

This one's a no-brainer. Quit your job and hang out your own shingle. Take just the cases that interest you, lots of pro bono. Put in more hours playing poker than lawyering. If poker doesn't work out, your resumé is still covered.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
this link is probably what youre looking for:

sthief thread

[/ QUOTE ]

sthief's situation and this guy's are worlds appart. This guy has a house, and a young baby.. and a gap on his resume may look odd.

OP, I think one of the biggest things you need to worry about is health insurance. If you haven't had to obtain it at your and your wife's age, it can be an eye opener.

I worked for a dotcom in the late 90s that eventually shut down. When everyone was laid off, we were offered Cobra from the state (or is it federal?).. in any case, since the company was completely out of business, they were only required to provide 2 months of cobra benefits... meaning that I had to go obtain private insurance.

Now.. I'm in a similar situation as you, similar age, young kid, 6 figure salary, lots of savings, bla bla bla.. I was willing to pay big for private insurance for me and my family... guess what.. we were *denied* Even if we only wanted catastophy insurance for $1K a month... *denied*. I should also point out that we didn't find out that we were going to be denied until just before our state mandated insurance was going to lapse. The insurance companies we were working with and getting quotes never indicated that there would be any issue. So, we picked the one that made the most sense financially and submitted our application only to have it denied about 3 weeks later.

Now, I managed to get another job before the cobra benefits lapsed so I didn't continue to pursue it.. but you really, really need to research your insurance options before you drop your employer's insurance.

If I ever go pro.. and I'm considering it some day.. I'm going to figure out a way to start a small (shell?) consulting company or something and use that to leverage a group plan for small busineses if I can't manage to get private insurance again.

Oh.. and even with those 2 months of cobra (which I think I had to pay over $2K for) my medical bills were huge when I did need to go in. My wife had post pregnancy complications, my son initially had some issues, and I slipped on the stairs and broke 2 disks in my back and had to go to the hospital. (I'm fine now, luckily)... anyway.. with all of that, even with cobra, I still had to pay around $12K for medical and ambulance bills because hospitalization wasn't fully covered and the max out of pocket cost for deductables was calculated per-person.

slightly off topic:

Until I had to deal with private health care, I had no idea how f'uped our health care system was. If I wasn't well off, I would have been screwed. I could very well see how the high insurance cost (and soon to have been no insurance) plus medical bills could tap a less afluant family of all they own.

Anyway.. the lesson here is to make sure you have a plan for insurance and that you will actually be able to get it.

[MyTurn2Raise]

[ QUOTE ]
Until I had to deal with private health care, I had no idea how f'uped our health care system was. If I wasn't well off, I would have been screwed. I could very well see how the high insurance cost (and soon to have been no insurance) plus medical bills could tap a less afluant family of all they own.

Anyway.. the lesson here is to make sure you have a plan for insurance and that you will actually be able to get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not to hard or too expensive...I'm a non-smoker in his mid/late 20s...about a grand a year

[Nightwish]

Don't do it. Coming from a pro, here are bunch of reasons why you should keep your job.

First, it sounds like you're on a good career track. Quitting will take you off that track and it'll be hard (if not impossible) to get back on.

Second, if the online games start dying for whatever reason, it'll be tough for you to come back to work with that gap on your resume.

Third, why not keep poker as a side hobby -- a very profitable hobby, but still a hobby? It sounds like you have plenty of time for poker on the side, so keep it that way. Trust me when I tell you that the game isn't nearly as fun when you feel that you have to put in a certain number of hours or play a certain number of hands per day.

Fourth, what are you going to do about medical insurance? This is a serious issue. Go ask any small business owner or sole proprietor about the hoops they have to jump through to get good insurance. And if you, your wife, or your baby have any pre-existing conditions, do not even think of quitting your job.

Fifth, does your company contribute anything towards your 401(k) or make some other contributions to your retirement? How about vacations, do you get those? Did you add in their value when calculating your law salary?

Sixth, did you consider the life of a poker pro besides just thinking about the freedom? Sure, you can work in your underwear if you want to, you can take off in the middle of the day if you want to, etc. But let me tell you something else that may surprise you: many pros get to keep 9-5 hours. There's only one problem. That's 9 PM to 5 AM. Why? Because that's when the games are often the best (I'm using PST here). Are you prepared for this? Are you prepared to be getting up after noon on a regular basis? Do you know what this is going to do to your social life? Oh, and are you prepared to play on Friday and Saturday nights instead of doing something else you'd rather do? Because as a pro, you'd be crazy not to play on Friday night -- by far the juiciest night of the week.

Seventh, it's very difficult to play as many hours as you're thinking you're going to play. To drive the point home, do this exercise. First, calculate what you expect your annual poker salary to be if you were to play full time. Next, divide that by 2. That second number will be far closer to your true salary than your original optimistic projections. Trust me, I've been there.

Eighth, there's a lot of stigma associated with playing poker professionally. Yeah, you may say you don't care what others think. And I say that I don't buy it. Are you willing to put up with all the snide remarks from your family, your wife's family, people you meet at cocktail parties, etc.? More importantly, is your wife willing to put up with it? For the majority of people in this world, including the educated folks in your circles, "poker pro" still translates to "loser." Not necessarily loser as in losing player, but loser in life.

Don't get me wrong. There are people for whom a career as a poker pro may indeed be a great idea. There are many more others for whom poker is much better kept as a side job. From the way you described yourself, you are definitely in the second category.

So what should you do about the fact that you're bored at work? Well, many people are and most keep slugging away. Of course, you can also be proactive about it in ways other than quitting to become a poker pro. You can start transitioning into another area of law practice, you can start looking into a career in business, etc. Only you know which of these things are appropriate for you.

[capone0]

You gotta remember, your making 110k, but with benefits, IE insurance, vacations, bonuses, other perks, your making signficantly more than that. There isn't a large chance "having a down swing." Most people don't really enjoy their jobs. But then again if poker becomes your job, you might not eventually like it either.

I love poker, in moderation, but if I had to do it ~40 hours a week, especially online, I think I could get bored after a couple of weeks. You might be different, but like someone said, try it out for 3 months. If you still love and the money is good, quit your job, otherwise, you took a relatively cheap experiment in what would happen if you did poker on full time.

I can't remember in your post, but if your wife works and receives insurance this could definitely be a lot easier of a transition.

[Mister Z]

Wow, POTD.