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Old 07-16-2005, 10:30 AM
45suited 45suited is offline
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Default Unavoidable bubble burst?

I felt kind of sick after bubbling out here. Up to this point, I hadn't been pushing much really. Does anybody avoid getting busted here? Two consecutive hands on PP22.

Blinds 75-150

Hand 1
UTG (2400) folds
Button (2615) folds
SB (Hero) (2095) dealt Qc6c pushes all in
BB (665) calls 665 (KhKd)

BB doubles up to 1630

Hand 2
UTG (2615) folds
Button (Hero) (1355) dealt Qc6c (again) raises all-in
SB (1555) calls 1280
BB (2250) folds

SB had KhQs, won the hand. I bubble out. Now, I really didn't want to push the very next hand (because it looks so tilty and will more likely be called) but I didn't think I had a choice here on the button with Q6s, good FE, and less than 10BB. Does anybody play these two hands differently? Disregarding on the 1st hand that he had a monster, I know that the BB is quite possibly more likely to gamble, but I can't see folding Q6s (an above average hand) because of this.

I THINK that I did what I had to do both times, but I'd be interested in hearing other opinions.
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  #2  
Old 07-16-2005, 10:39 AM
RobGW RobGW is offline
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Default Re: Unavoidable bubble burst?

Just because you have <10x the BB does not mean you HAVE to push. It just means IF you are going to play a hand it is better to push it. Especially given the circumstances I think taking this hand off for the reasons you stated yourself would have been better. 7-10x the BB push a halfway decent hand. 5-6x the BB push with any 2.
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:42 AM
USCSigma1097 USCSigma1097 is offline
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Default Re: Unavoidable bubble burst?

I think this is very avoidable.

I know I might be wrong, but I am of the play for the money, and then play for first attitude. I insta-fold q6 in the sb when you have your stack and the bb is still very low. Before anyone else points it out, I know that you are passing up a +ev situation more than likely. However, if you remain patient a few more orbits, you're more than likely ITM with plenty of chips to go to war with. Of course, you might also pick up a monster as well.

So I guess in your situation, I'm not pushing without 88+, Ax, or K8. I might be way off the mark, but I just posted a thread about getting busted on the bubble with a super short stack still in play, and many posters i respect said that they would fold AK.

Sigma
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:47 AM
45suited 45suited is offline
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Default Re: Unavoidable bubble burst?

[ QUOTE ]
I just posted a thread about getting busted on the bubble with a super short stack still in play, and many posters i respect said that they would fold AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but this situation was totally different. He had 665 after posting the first hand. If I fold the first hand, he has 890. Not super short. I had an above average hand and couldn't see folding just because the guy might want to gamble.

As for the 2nd hand, I had 9BB so I could be a little patient. However, having 9BB also meant that I had significant FE.

I guess I'm not really asking if bubbling out was "avoidable". I know that I "could" have folded both hands. Was my play "correct"?
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  #5  
Old 07-16-2005, 11:08 AM
USCSigma1097 USCSigma1097 is offline
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Default Re: Unavoidable bubble burst?

There's no easy answer to your question suited. I could give you the standard disclaimers about how you have to take into account table image, the players, the situation, alignment of the moon, current luckbox charge, etc....

I have a range of hands that I push at a certain point when the blinds are a certain point. I'm sure I could play better.

ICM says that your play is "Correct", but it's a play i'm not going to make in your situation.

Sigma
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Old 07-16-2005, 11:11 AM
45suited 45suited is offline
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Default Re: Unavoidable bubble burst?

Which play would you not make? Neither? I just think that I'm giving up too much by folding the first hand. And really, it's hard for either of the other players to call the 2nd one without a very good hand. Maybe the 2nd one was a little questionable, but if so, only because I had just lost the previous hand.

I'd really like to get more feedback on this one. Thanks for your input.
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  #7  
Old 07-16-2005, 11:35 AM
kamrann kamrann is offline
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Default Re: Unavoidable bubble burst?

I've *not* done any ICM calculations or anything else, but...

I definitely fold the first one without even thinking about it. If I had got into the second situation, I fold that too.

What are you trying to gain from the first push? So waht if Q6 is above average, if called you are behind. Surely you don't want to be called here? He's very short so his range will be wide, but still ahead of you. But assuming you don't want to get a call, then is it really worth it for 225 chips? It makes very little difference to your situation to take his blind, but if you double him up it makes a huge difference, putting you in last place. You are well ahead of him at this point, so I would say you shouldn't be going up against him without a very strong hand, since the cost of losing in this situation far outweighs the benefit of stealing his blind or even taking him out.

The second one I would say is closer, but with the blinds still so low I would fold this. I imagine it's probably fairly close by ICM so that's just personal preference.
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Old 07-16-2005, 11:41 AM
45suited 45suited is offline
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Default Re: Unavoidable bubble burst?

Yeah, maybe this is what happens when I take a couple weeks off of SNGs to play cash games. Maybe I got out of the correct SNG mindset. This was my first set of games in a while. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] The money is nice in the cash games but I was kind of afraid that this would happen if I tried doing both.
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  #9  
Old 07-16-2005, 11:51 AM
Jeoke Jeoke is offline
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Default Re: Unavoidable bubble burst?

[ QUOTE ]

What are you trying to gain from the first push? So waht if Q6 is above average, if called you are behind. Surely you don't want to be called here? He's very short so his range will be wide, but still ahead of you. But assuming you don't want to get a call, then is it really worth it for 225 chips? It makes very little difference to your situation to take his blind, but if you double him up it makes a huge difference, putting you in last place. You are well ahead of him at this point, so I would say you shouldn't be going up against him without a very strong hand, since the cost of losing in this situation far outweighs the benefit of stealing his blind or even taking him out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you didnt look at ICM but another poster said he did. Assuming he is correct that ICM says to push... what i quoted above is exactly what ICM takes into consideration...

Anyway, I'm also no expert but I am always pushing that in the SB. the seccond hand Im not so sure about but i would probably push as well.

If ICM does say to push here then for those of you who say you won't unless you have a better hand, why? only reason I can think of is to preserve your table image.
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  #10  
Old 07-16-2005, 12:01 PM
JayKon JayKon is offline
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Default Re: Unavoidable bubble burst?

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess in your situation, I'm not pushing without 88+, Ax, or K8. I might be way off the mark, but I just posted a thread about getting busted on the bubble with a super short stack still in play, and many posters i respect said that they would fold AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the bubble, with a decent stack, you're folding AK!?!?

Maybe at the higher buyins (and I mean maybe), but at $22 SnG's and below, I'm taking the shot - period. It has to be -EV to fold this hand from either the SB, or the button when no one has VP$IP'd.
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