A State of Massachusetts

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People are great, individuals are rude, ignorant, and untrustworthy.

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Might I point out that this, minus the 'people are great' part, is a good summation of the views of many prominent conservatives on this forum as well. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I have a great loathing for the Puritanical Peoples' Republic of MA as well, and particularly for its state government and the system of bribery and gerrymandering that some people seem to mistake for an attempt at socialism. Until recently I could not buy beer on Sundays here either, and the only reason I can now is because I live within 10 miles of the NY border and local businesses sued the state, saying it was an unfair disadvantage that they were only open 6 days.

Oh, and here in super-elite South Berkshire county, you can't even sell beer or wine in a gas station or grocery store, for fear of miscreants I suppose.

You also can't get Geico, Progressive, or a variety of other cheap insurance providers here, because the state legislature 'protects' consumers by saddling them with a non-competitive, overpriced insurance market.

However, I don't have a problem with the statement included in the gun. To a few people, like Zeno, it is an affront to the dignity and responsibility of a decent, well-trained gun owner. To the rest, it is a wall of Legos to stop the tsunami that is the ignorance and irresponsibility of the average citizen.

NT

[Blarg]

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Why is it that "liberals" are anything but liberal in granting personal freedon to their fellow citizens? Minnesotans are still considered to be too irresponsible to be trusted to buy beer on Sunday, or in grocery stores.

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Labels can be addicting. Almost impossibly addicting and almost impossible to fight off. They have a natural appeal even when they're somewhat incorrect, and are fantastically compelling when they're most wrong.

I'm liberal, and I'm a gun-owner and big 2nd amendment advocate. I choose to be an independent minded person, not cave in to whatever label and group-think is popular with either conservatives or liberals. I also was for welfare reform. I believe in both personal freedom and personal responsibility.

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Minnesotans are still considered to be too irresponsible to be trusted to buy beer on Sunday, or in grocery stores.

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That's not a matter of liberalism. Germany still closes many businesses all Sunday. I don't think that nation has been called liberal for over a century. That's religious/morality based.

And that's something virtually everyone of every political stripe loves to get in on.

Liberals may have a distrust for how people with perfect freedom are going to handle themselves, and so want to make rules to ensure a supposedly "best outcome," but conservatives are traditionally absolutely no better, often worse.

It's various types of conservatives who wanted to burn rock and roll records, who both wanted to make birth control pills illegal and still actively campaign against any new form of birth control, yet at the same time want to tell a woman whether or not she can have an abortion, and, if so, exactly when and how. And want to force her doctor to talk about it with her only in certain ways. That's restriction upon restriction of private behavior even piled contradictorily upon themselves.

It's conservatives who want to withhold funding for local charities and international predicated solely upon whether they provide condoms or other forms of birth control.

It's conservatives who want to put one religion's Ten Commandments in publicly funded buildings that people of all religions must use and expect protection and representation in, and conservatives who generally work one particular religion into government, not liberals.

It's conservatives who want to sanitize the public airwaves, censor novels and plays and documentaries, create blacklists that ruin the lives of people and whole families, etc.

Neither conservatives nor liberals really trust people, and I don't think either of them even value or like people. Most people don't like anyone who isn't like them, and the freedom most people think is fair to grant others is the freedom not to differ -- to live differently, feel differently, and openly express difference -- but to conform; that is, to be exactly like them.

Lack of love for the rights and privacy of others is a big issue not just with liberals or conservatives, but with the human animal, period.

It's just sloppy thinking, and wishful thinking, to ascribe all the negatives and things we don't like to one real or imagined group, and keep all the virtues in our minds as things that apply only or to any significant degree to us.

I think anyone who rigorously follows a party line or its group-think, usually established almost at random by whatever band of dickheads is popular and on top at the time, usually has a mind of a small and narrow scale, and is likely ignorant of both history and its ramifications.

What passes for thought is probably rarely more than the consoling regurgitation of whatever influences we've grown up with and had stuffed down our throats by our time and geography, personal weaknesses, and family and friends. And the notion that those influences are benign, balanced, or very thoroughly thought through is a very comforting, but very foolish one.

[benfranklin]

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Might I point out that this, minus the 'people are great' part, is a good summation of the views of many prominent conservatives on this forum as well. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Any of my ranting against the left is not to be taken as an endorsement of the right. Both sides have their fair share of well-meaning idiots. Democrat guru James Carville wrote a book called "We're Right, They're Wrong". That attitude explains the major problem with both extremes of the political spectrum. The political right has traditionally had more respect for self-determination than the left, although that seems to be weakening as the Republican Party moves to the center, which has been vacated by the Dems. The left continues to try to legislate outcomes rather than a environment for self-determination. To "protect" consumers, Minnesota has laws imposing retail price limits on such things as gas and cigarettes. These laws do not set upper limits, they set minimum prices. If I remember the numbers correctly, gas stations are required to sell gas for at least $0.08 per gallon above their wholesale cost. In addition to restraining competition, these laws impose additional costs of compliance by merchants and enforcement by government.


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However, I don't have a problem with the statement included in the gun. To a few people, like Zeno, it is an affront to the dignity and responsibility of a decent, well-trained gun owner. To the rest, it is a wall of Legos to stop the tsunami that is the ignorance and irresponsibility of the average citizen.

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The warning, like the recently expired Assault Weapons Ban, is there to give lawmakers a warm and fuzzy feeling of accomplishment. It assumes that the gun owner will read and understand it, and act accordingly. Compare the two warnings in Zeno's original post. Which is more likely to be read? Which is more likely to be dismissed and ignored as pointless and incomprehensible legalese?

Such warnings are an affront to anyone who bothers to read and understand them, both because of their content and because of the insult of the underlying assumption about the reader's intelligence and competence.

Intelligence aside, I have a lot more confidence in the responsibility of the average gun owner than I do in the responsibility of the average driver.

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Any of my ranting against the left is not to be taken as an endorsement of the right.

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Nor was it taken as such. Just struck me as funny. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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political right has traditionally had more respect for self-determination than the left, although that seems to be weakening as the Republican Party moves to the center, which has been vacated by the Dems.

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I have problems with this. Both parties are trying to move into the 'center' and don't really know what it is. GOP is disappointing small government types with major spending, but moving farther right on social and cultural issues, and foreign policy more or less. Dems took over some of the foreign policy left but IMHO represent more of a 'center' on some social issues that Bush has pushed for far-right action on.

I think, as I've said in some earlier posts, that the left-right axis is losing a lot of its usefulness given that we have a very radical administration right now and the geopolitical landscape is shifting so much.

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Intelligence aside, I have a lot more confidence in the responsibility of the average gun owner than I do in the responsibility of the average driver.

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Well, first, this is hard to quantify, and second, one is a much greater responsibility than the other.

NT

[Zeno]

You nailed it Rick. That is the Charlie Parker CD I just purchased. About $11 including tax. Quite a bargin.

I don't have any Emmylou, followered her music from the 70's on but just don't have any CD's of her. My dad used to play an old cassette of Emmylou in his shop while wood carving or tying flies. The tape finally died a slow and tortuous death. Thank God (the music was great the tape was just too worn out)

-Zeno

[Zeno]

Great discussion. Just to clarify some, I was not really that distraught with the warning itself as with the very obvious and underlying theme to the whole text. Which I think is very obvious. All that was required by law, probably, could be stated and was stated in the warning from the State of New Jersey and most that entered this discussion understand that I think. Of course it does not 'hurt me' any to read the warning - but is that really the main point! I think not. It’s the embedded message and tone in how the Massachusetts Attorney General’s office chose to present the warning and the underlying political and social attitude it reveals. It beguiles their real intent, in my opinion, which is to imply that gun owners are morons, or at least, much less intelligent than the authors of the warnings. Which leads to other things that have already been hashed over by others and etc.......

As to the whole political structure and the whys and how’s etc. of warnings and the Conservative/Liberal label and agenda, I have no set of views that I want to expound on in this thread least it turn into a mumbo-jumbo of political jabberwocky, which is best left to the Donkeys and Elephants of the politics forum.

Thanks to all that responded and all who did not - Andy’s silence alone spoke volumes. John Cole wisely constrained his comments to limp satire and cold witticisms. Rick chimed in with music talk. So God is in His heaven, Bush is on his Throne, and all is right in this best of all possible worlds.

-Zeno, Neo-con Fascist.

[Zeno]

This is the correct forum for all related gun talk or discussion. The thread evolved into something more political than anticipated. If you find it distasteful, you are free to ignore it.

-Zeno

[MycroftX]

I'm very proud to live in RI/Mass. And I have passed the Hunter's safety course with flying colors.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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I don't have any Emmylou, followered her music from the 70's on but just don't have any CD's of her. My dad used to play an old cassette of Emmylou in his shop while wood carving or tying flies. The tape finally died a slow and tortuous death. Thank God (the music was great the tape was just too worn out)

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If you don't go with a compilation i.e. greatest hits CD, you can't go wrong with "Wrecking Ball". The title track alone is worth the price of the CD. Check out the clips from my link to the CD on Amazon.

~ Rick

[jakethebake]

Sounds about right...It's Massachusetts!