NL beginner seeks advice on how to deal with "trapper"

[AlphaMeridian]

Hi. I'm a relative NL newbie who has been playing a .25/.25 $25 buyin for a couple of months with my home game group. I'm up money since we started the NL cash game, but I realize this doesn't really mean much. One of the players which I have the most trouble with is a player who loves to trap me. Either he traps, and I fold, and he wins, or he traps and I call, and he wins. He's very good at playing loose preflop. I come from a limit mindset, so I think I tend to set myself up for this (typical action would go like: Preflop: I raise, he calls. Flop: I bet, he calls, Turn: I bet he calls, River: I bet or check, he bets or raises signifantly, and i either fold/call) Normally with disasterous results. He'll call a PFR from me with nearly any two suited that he's already invested in the pot in. He might fold if the raise is upfront, but even if it isn't, the table we play at is so loose, I'M tempted to call with any two decent suited cards in LP (we play 9-6 handed, normally around 7)

So. I'm left in a dilemma. With a few exceptions, he's taking my money, and I'm not taking his. Is there any thing or combination of things I can work on in order to fight back a bit? I aplogize for the lack of specific hands.

-Alpha

[kurto]

1) raise more pf if you don't want him calling with junk.
2) learn to read hands. You have to put him on a range of hands to figure out the chances you are being trapped.

Also-- your post is vague. What are you raising with? Are you betting with something or nothing? Do you mix it up?

You should love someone who calls raises with any 2 suited.

Also- on the river, does he ever bet and/or raise you with a bluff? If not, bet... fold to a raise.

[AlphaMeridian]

Yeah, I'm sorry about the vagueness. Incidently enough, I have that same feeling of vagueness when I'm facing him going over the top. In any case, I'm concerned with overbetting preflop. Normal raises PF are normally to $1 (4x bb total). I mean, I can go do $2, and drop the field. I'm worried about varying the size of my raise if I do this too much, unless I'm going to start also raising my value raises (like, suited connectors in LP) to that level as well.

As to my ranges - I'm normally raising AA-TT, AKs-AJo, KQs, JTs (on the button or CO)

If anything, I think I don't mix it up enough, even though they've seen me try to bluff once or twice. The table image is tht I _don't_ bluff though. Then again, the table image is also that I'm weak tight. He's not the only one who makes moves on me, although, he's the person who makes the most money off of me.

On the river, I'm not sure _what_ he does. Sometimes he busts out the premium hands, and others, he busts out the 85s (A hand I saw last saturday) for the flush. I think, while he's loose preflop, he has postflop "sense". It makes it hard to determine if he's got a made or drawing hand. A signifant example, though, is a hand I remember from a couple of weeks ago.

I have KJo in the blinds. I check, and see KJx on the flop. I bet out either $1 or $2, we might have gotten a caller, (he's in LP) he calls. Turn brings a flush draw, and I bet out $10 - trying to buy the pot right then and there. Because I have trouble putting him on a hand, espcially when he doens't raise much BEFORE the river, I feared a flush draw, and tried to take it down. He calls the $10 (It was an overbet on my part). River was a Q, and he only has a couple of dollars left that i'm SURE are going in the pot, so i put him all in. He turns over KQo for the rivered to pair to beat my KJ.

This hand really confused me, becuase I'm not sure how else I could have played it other than pushing the turn, or being more aggressive on the flop, but then again, being out of position really hurt - I bet out the $1 or $2 ( I can't remember) and got called. No information there :/

-Alpha

[kurto]

re: the example you posted. You shouldn't be confused. You had him putting in large amounts as a significant underdog. You suffered a bad beat.

If you're betting when you think you have the best hand and slowing down when you think you're behind... then you're playing great poker. This doesn't mean you win... it means you win the most when the cards are good and lose the least when the cards go cold.

Re: Raising- Do raise the same amount every time. I'm just saying if he'll call with any 2 cards for a 4xbb raise, see if 6x makes a difference.

Also- it sounds like you need to mix it up more. Try making more strategic bluffs. Also, employ checkraises. You need become more unpredictable.

beyond that... its hard to say more without knowing more specifics. Sounds like he might just be a lucky LAG.

I have to agree with the previous poster. A recurrent theme in your betting patterns seems to be a conspicuous lack of a check raise. Sometimes, a check-raise can really let you know where you stand. Also, you make no mention of what type of player this guy is aside from the fact that he is loose preflop. What are his betting patterns postflop...etc?

I had a friend like that too... I would lose to him every week. But, I just followed good ol' Dan Harrington's advice which is essentially, you make the most money playing the "opposite" of what people think you play.
I had generally had a weak-tight image. This wasn't because I actually was weak-tight, but it was because I had gotten burned by so many of my friends playing loose and beating me with Q5o making two pair on the river that I became tentative when they would bet out.. I had no clue what they had and so my TPTK or my low set with flush/straight draws didn't look so good to me anymore.

So a couple of times (not many) I would raise with something like 56s/89s just knowing that he was going to call with his trash. If I didn't the flop, then I folded. Once I hit the flop and took his money with a 4-8 straight and another I hit the flop with a 6-high straight. Granted there were a number of times that I raised and then folded. But eventually showing down some hands where I raised with less than premium holdings helped my image changed from weak-tight to a little unpredictable(Borderline LPP, if they knew what that was.) People saw that I wasn't only raising with high cards and limping with medium holdings.

He began to learn that when I raised and low cards were on the board, he wasn't going to be able to take my money as easily.

[six_4off]

In the scenario that you just posted, there is nothing you can do. you got him to put over 80% of his chips in w/ the worst hand. A classic outdraw.

I do agree w/ the previous reply. a bunch of your money will be won or lost w/ the preflop betting, because it seems that that is where he is making the most mistakes.

Furthermore, how loose is your table. What % of players are seeing a flop and for how much. You may be playing too tight. Think of it this way, the more pre flop players there are, the more you need to loosen up. The reason for this is that there is more money in the pot, therefore offering you better pot odds. Dont raise w/ 10/j suited because you are then forced to hit a flop, if you dont, you will likely be bet out of it, and loose more money. these are hands that are great to limp w/ and hope to pick up a juicy pot when the flop hits you hard and to muck it when it doesn't and save yourself a preflop raise. They are gonna call w/ their marginal hand weather you raise or not, so why risk more money w/ your marginal hand?

Last but not least always take implied odds into account. I say this because i know that you said you are from a limit mindset. No limit your odds are as grteat as your opponents stack. Against players who i know cant get off top pair no matter what the board reads, i will chase a flush draw w/ odds as bad as 2 to 1. Sounds like a donk move, but if you hit against a no flodem holdem player. you could get 6 to 7 to 1 on your money by the time the hand is over. That isnt recommended everyt time, but things like this are all ways to vary your play and mix it up like you are trying to do.

Hope this helps!

reply if you have any more questions!

64

[AlphaMeridian]

The table is normally really loose. Taking 7 as the average number of players, it's maybe, 4-5 to a flop. I try to limp in on a wide variety of hands. Excluding the raising hands range i posted before, pocket pairs, suited connectors, QT, QTs, KT, KTs, KJ, KJs (iffy. I might raise this in position)

An off topic question I have is that I'm doing the stars nanolimit to try to get enough for a $5 NL BR. How much is a decent $5NL BR? $50? (10 buyins)? $100?

-Alpha

[rikz]

[ QUOTE ]
What % of players are seeing a flop and for how much. You may be playing too tight. Think of it this way, the more pre flop players there are, the more you need to loosen up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't sound right. Granted, this may be a loose, passive home game where limping with things like 57o might have decent implied odds (maybe), but you would need pretty deep stacks and good reads on your opponents to take advantage of it.

But I find that in a full (9 or 10 player) NL ring game, you are better off playing tight. I guess that might be boring for a home game, but I think it is sounder advise than "play more pots because of pot odds." Sure, you don't want to be predictable, but playing 20% of the hands, raising preflop 7-8% of the hands, watching position closely, and being aggressive post flop seem better at a full game than playing loose passive with say 40% of the hands and raising less than 3-4% of the hands preflop. Finally, at a game like this you probably need to bluff less and value bet more. Continuation bets with nothing but a missed AK, for example, is probably bad if Joe and Tom will call you down with second button. So, raise a little more with good hands preflop (4xBB + 1/limper instaed of just 4xBB), value bet on decent flops, and manage the pot size and your position versus the tricky guy. For example, try to sit with tricky guy closer to your right than to your left so you can have position on him more than he has position on you.