Hand from TJ Cloutier Card Player Article

[betgo]

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...amp;m_id=65573

Blinds 800/1600, no mention of antes, late in major tournament. Hero is in BB is in BB with KcJc and T34K. CO raises to 5400. Hero calls.

Flop comes QcTc4d. The players go allin. Hero loses to villain's QQ for flopped set.

TJ says that hero's mistake was that he should not have called a raise with KJs. This is a trouble hand that is behind practically anything CO would be rasing with.

I guess I didn't understand TJ's books, because I don't see how I could ever fold KJs in that situation. Not only is it a high card "trouble hand", it is also a suited gapper. It seems like you would want to see a flop with it.

No mention is made that this is a blind defense situation. TJ just mentions the call and says it should be a fold. I think I would usually push here preflop. This seems like a great restealing hand. Who says CO has a better hand. Push and see if he thinks still thinks it is better. It seems like read is important here. No mention is made of read on CO and whether he has been stealing.

This seems to be another of TJ's lessons on how to be weak/tight dead money.

[daryn]

so, just let me be clear...

your contention is that TJ Cloutier is weak tight dead money?

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
so, just let me be clear...

your contention is that TJ Cloutier is weak tight dead money?

[/ QUOTE ]

No just that he teaches others to play that way.

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
I’m not saying that I won’t go up and over somebody with that hand. I might even go over the top of them with a 7-2, but I do it because I’ve put them on a bad hand, not two queens

[/ QUOTE ]
So TJ says the mistake is the call. The way I read it he's advocating not calling raises with an easily dominated hand OOP without a read - but instead to act on it if you have a read. Not that mysterious.

But I'll give you, even though TJ's winning record cannot be disputed his books attempts to analyze the game beyound reads are generally abysmal and rarely goes above the level of heuristics.

Amazing that McManus managed to make fifth in WSOP ME 2000 with TJ's book and early Wilson software as sole sources of NL wisdom.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

well think about it, thats much better for his longterm financial situation, right?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
So TJ says the mistake is the call. The way I read it he's advocating not calling raises with an easily dominated hand OOP without a read

[/ QUOTE ]
If you make a straight or a flush, that is not easily dominated. Plus KJs may easily dominate whatever junk CO is raising with.

Furthermore, it is great to say not to call. However, the obvious play here is to push and that is not mentioned in the article.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so, just let me be clear...

your contention is that TJ Cloutier is weak tight dead money?

[/ QUOTE ]

No just that he teaches others to play that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

[FakeKramer]

[ QUOTE ]
well think about it, thats much better for his longterm financial situation, right?

[/ QUOTE ]Are you honestly suggesting that TJ Cloutier "throws" his advice? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[joeboe2001]

“If you’re calling while knowing that you probably have the worst hand, that’s a mistake,”

Are you all saying this is bad advice? I don't carry it around with me, but I think I remember a whole section in HOH I that addresses (not) agressively playing hands like K-J.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
“If you’re calling while knowing that you probably have the worst hand, that’s a mistake,”

Are you all saying this is bad advice? I don't carry it around with me, but I think I remember a whole section in HOH I that addresses (not) agressively playing hands like K-J.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are getting about 2.5-1 on your money to call with typical major tournament ante. You may be slightly behind something like A8o, but is much easier to make a big hand with KJs.

People call tgiht early position raisers with pps and suited conenctors all the time, knowing the raiser has 99, AQ or better. That is not necessarily a bad move. Certainly with the pot odds you get in the BB with antes, you need to call a lot of raises.

Furthermore, why do you think you are behind? KJs could be well ahead of a lot of COs typical raising hands.