Questionable Ethics?

[zephyr]

Just returned from my first trip to Vegas,

I'm typically an SNG player, however have played my fair share of NL, all of it online. Anyways, I just returned from Vegas where I was playing in the 2-5 no limit game at the Mirage. The money was very deep, except for me. I'm small stack with around $100, next stack is ~$300, and all of the other stacks are well over $1000. So needless to say I'm being bullyed alot. If I see the flop I'm pot commited as the typical raise was around 6XBB. I manage to stick around for about 50 hands, stealing the blinds every so often. Then the questionable play occurs.

I'm small blind with around $85, before the cards are dealt, the BB places $20 out and states that he's raising it blind. Everyone folds to me with Q9o, and so I of course push being a favourite over a random hand, plus having a fair amount of folding equity with a pot of $22 (or so I think). The moment after I say all-in, the BB says, "well I better take a look here", and pulls back his $15. The table starts to argue that he has to leave it in, and eventually the dealer says that he doesn't. The outcome in irrelevant.

I thought that his play was ethically wrong. Had he only had the BB out I probably wouldn't have pushed as there would only be $7 in the pot.

Any thoughts?

Zephyr

[Vehn]

Before you acted you should have asked the dealer if extra $15 is dead or not. But to answer your question yes you were probably the victim of an angle.

[Garland]

His "blind" raise isn't legal as he is last to act preflop. Only UTG can raise blind. As to the ethics question, it should be dealer who should point out that he should pull back his raise and wait his proper turn. Also, players should also police themselves in this manner as they should also be aware that his raise was also improper. His play was unethical yes, as he'd reap the benefits if he had a solid hand and called, but if no one pointed out the improper and illegal raise, there's something wrong with the game in general.

Garland

[TStoneMBD]

his play was unethical but you have only yourself to blame. you clearly should have just called the sb and when the action is passed back to you after he blind raises you then push.

[CollegePlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Just returned from my first trip to Vegas,

I'm typically an SNG player, however have played my fair share of NL, all of it online. Anyways, I just returned from Vegas where I was playing in the 2-5 no limit game at the Mirage. The money was very deep, except for me. I'm small stack with around $100, next stack is ~$300, and all of the other stacks are well over $1000. So needless to say I'm being bullyed alot. If I see the flop I'm pot commited as the typical raise was around 6XBB. I manage to stick around for about 50 hands, stealing the blinds every so often. Then the questionable play occurs.

I'm small blind with around $85, before the cards are dealt, the BB places $20 out and states that he's raising it blind. Everyone folds to me with Q9o, and so I of course push being a favourite over a random hand, plus having a fair amount of folding equity with a pot of $22 (or so I think). The moment after I say all-in, the BB says, "well I better take a look here", and pulls back his $15. The table starts to argue that he has to leave it in, and eventually the dealer says that he doesn't. The outcome in irrelevant.

I thought that his play was ethically wrong. Had he only had the BB out I probably wouldn't have pushed as there would only be $7 in the pot.

Any thoughts?

Zephyr

[/ QUOTE ]
What a goofy bastard. Key his car. Joking.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
his play was unethical but you have only yourself to blame. you clearly should have just called the sb and when the action is passed back to you after he blind raises you then push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's pretty obvious that he's going he's going to do the same thing if SB calls, then BB will look at his crap hand and take his raise back. Same difference.

Garland

[tewall]

If he keeps that up, somebody probably will. Or worse.

[Scooterdoo]

Two thoughts. First, I've been playing a lot of NL cash games lately and I would strongly recommend that you DO NOT play games where you are short-stacked to the extent you describe. I haven't played NL at the Mirage, but at the Palms for example you can put up $200-500. You should try to put up as much as possible if you can afford to. If you can't you should probably find a different game -- there is just too much advantage to having a larger stack. I also play the $100 and $200 PP games quite a bit and it is just too easy to bully other players when I build up my stack to 400,500,600 or more. When players sit down with less than the max they almost always lose.

On the play in question, you should have asked the player to confirm that he was committing the chips to the pot and get the dealer to confirm it before making your decision.

I was at the Palms 2 weeks ago and Joe Awata (the 7 card stud tourney he won at the WSOP had just played on TV a few days before and he also came in 2nd in a WSOP NL game) sat down and I think he was either frustrated, drunk or just feisty, but he kept on putting $50 in front of him and saying that he would play the hand blind (he also said he would push blind a few times). I had some decent hands but didn't trust he would do it so folded, and was concerned that if he really was going to push I would be forced to play a hand all-in that I was not comfortable playing. Anyway, I was one of the few people at the table who didn't make money from him. He lost about 2k in an hour. BTW, he was a really, really nice guy and I think he was just having fun, so I'm not trying say anything negative about him, to the contrary I enjoyed playing with him and he is a true gentleman. I'm sure he wins way more than he loses and he has a nice bankroll from his WSOP winnings. My point is you need to be very careful in these situations.

One strategy I see online a lot in the PP NL cash games is when someone calls out their hands and then plays them through a showdown. They do this 5,6,7 times in a row and they always show the hand they had called out so you assume they will always tell you the truth. Then on the next hand they lie about their hand and you lose a lot of money. It's a set-up. Don't get drawn into these situations. Just play your normal game and play it well.

[zephyr]

Thanks for the feedback all,

The villain eventually called my raise and turned over A2, hit an ace on the flop and it was all over for me. Good learning experience though.

Zephyr

[D.J.]

If you didn't get the money, follow his ass out to the parking lot.

-D.J.