Interesting No Limit Question

[cepstrum]

Hi Squirrel -

Your point about the Jd is well-taken. But realize that you really don't mind being reraised for all your chips, because this makes it so likely that the Jd is out that you can toss your hand.

Good Luck

Cepstrum

[Wayfare]

Read the original post again.

You know the guy behind you has a flush draw NOT THE FLUSH DRAW PLUS THE MADE STRAIGHT and you know the first guy has the made straight (who gives a flying f___ if he has the naked Jd).

You can destroy the odds of the flush draw by reopening the betting and implicitly colluding with the first guy to push.

Squirrel has posted 20 times on this thread while not carefully reading the original scenerio.

[rickthekeg]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, and risk the flush draw behind you raising? I don't like that play, but it is a lot better than raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would feel pretty confident that someone with a flush draw would not raise with a TQKA board. Just my feelings on the matter.

[Bernas]

Just because he has the flush draw does not mean he didn't hit the straight as well.

The problem here is the most you can win is no where near the cost of your tournament life in this situation.

[Bernas]

point taken which is why I am ok with calling more than raising. I still prefer folding this because of the risk I am taking compared to the gain I will get.

[eh923]

Raising is only suicide if someone else pushes AND you call.

And let me clarify something...
This has been a great thread. You (and others) have pointed out a lot of things that I handn't thought about. I'm more of a limit guy trying to branch out, so anything I can learn is good! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Squirrel]

No my friend, you're not reading into it ENOUGH.

The two diamonds HAD to flop. If the second diamond came on the turn how the hell could you put him on the backdoor flush draw when he hasn't even acted yet!?!

Did his nose twitch?

If you put him on a flush draw there is nothing that says one of them can't be the Jack.

The fact that the Jack is unaccounted for is scary as hell.

[Deorum]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody said that you don't have the Jd. Why are we assuming that? I can only guess that DS left this info out because he didn't want us to focus on this aspect of it. Otherwise, whether or not you have the Jd is very important and shouldn't have been left out.

This is why, in my first post in this thread, I provided all of my analysis, then I added in, "But if he has a straight and flush draw, then you're in trouble."

I did, indeed, realize this aspect of it, but I didn't feel like DS wanted us to focus on it, otherwise we would need to know what suit our Jack was. Since he left that info out, theres no way we could focus on that aspect.

I still think that my first post is correct analysis.

[/ QUOTE ]

David said that we had specifically A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],
which means that we do not have the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The fact
that we do not have the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is the key to this
hand, and you all seem to be missing the major point that
Squirrel has constantly been making: any opponent who holds
the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] has enormous control in this hand, and
that fact simply because David did not specify "one of your
opponents holds the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]" is a horrible reason to
ignore it. If you were in this position, in a real
tournament, you would not have somebody there to tell you
that noone holds the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The fact is that somebody
could hold the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and that is the key
concept in this problem, even if he or she does not
have another diamond to go with it.

[Bernas]

It may not be suicide but it is definitely -EV

[cepstrum]

Hi Wayfare -

Incorrect. David's saying that you think the player behind you has a flush draw does not preclude him having a made straight as well. This is because some flush draws are made straights. This is pretty simple.

I still think Squirrel's answer is wrong, and I also think that this is where the really interesting part of the problem is. His contention is that raising is suicide because you will sometimes be reraised all-in. My contention is that if your raise is large enough to break the odds for the flush draw or other possible hands (2 pair, trips, which cannot be discounted completely), but not so large as to leave you pot committed, then you don't care about being raised all-in because you can fold.

In essence, you are not risking your tournament by making a small raise, but you are protecting your hand in case you are not losing a freeroll.

Good Luck

Cepstrum