God does love everybody

[NotReady]

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you imply that various Christian doctrines can be logically inconsistent with each other or with the human reason that God has given us.


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I clearly don't imply this because I also said the following:

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But I believe God is Absolute Rationality and there are no real contradictions in Him or His word.


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There are many doctrines that we do not understand fully. They appear to us to be unreasonable or contradictory. The appearance of contradiction is paradox and is not the same as actual contradiction. Paradox exists in the Bible but logical contradiction does not.

[NotReady]

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Is it true that one can know all the Scripture's testimonies and explicit teachings regarding predestination, reject it, and still be saved?


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I'm really talking about errors in doctrine. What you are describing is a willful rejection of God's word even though the person knows the correct interpretation. I don't know, can a Christian commit murder because he knows he's forgiven and so won't go to hell? I view the two as stemming from the same attitude and perhaps evidence that the person isn't really a Christian.

Paul said someone can eat meat freely but if he believes it's sin, then it is sin. So if it's ok to eat meat and I believe it isn't ok I'm making a doctrinal error. I should become a vegetarian. But if I say I don't care what God says about eating meat and so I'm going to do so, I'm sinning.

We shouldn't judge whether someone who acts as the above is a real Christian but that person should reconsider the sincerity of his faith. On doctrinal disputes, I believe we should be charitable and civil and remember how often we've been wrong in the past and are likely to be again.

As to your last example, I think what you are doing is trying to quantify saving faith, or to set down in words what someone has to think in order to be saved. No one really thinks just what you wrote and nothing more. We are far more complex than that. If someone has an attitude of demanding salvation from God it raises the question of whether or not genuine faith is possible. Saving faith requires trust in God alone for salvation. Can you do that and still make salvation a demand, something God owes you?

[NotReady]

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if you insist on believing in stuff that even you say is not necessary to believe in?


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I said it isn't necessary to believe for salvation. But it's in the Bible. If the Bible is the infallible word of God, if predestination is in the Bible, how can I deny predestination? I effectively deny the divinity of the Bible.

[NotReady]

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and have will have no afterlife at all


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I've said before I don't exclude the possibility of annihilation. I even hope it's true. But the Bible seems to say otherwise. And I think the fact that God is just takes care of the problem.

If it's Bluff in a walk on this issue then he has other difficulties, such as the Bible itself.

[NotReady]

OK I read the article. Since he likes to get to the point directly, I will. Why did Adam sin? He doesn't discuss this, and Adam's sin is where all these discussions must eventually arrive.

[udontknowmickey]

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I'm really talking about errors in doctrine. What you are describing is a willful rejection of God's word even though the person knows the correct interpretation. I don't know, can a Christian commit murder because he knows he's forgiven and so won't go to hell? I view the two as stemming from the same attitude and perhaps evidence that the person isn't really a Christian.


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Ok, I agree with you here. I just want to make sure that we're on the same page.

[udontknowmickey]

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OK I read the article. Since he likes to get to the point directly, I will. Why did Adam sin? He doesn't discuss this, and Adam's sin is where all these discussions must eventually arrive.


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This is addressed in Vincent' Cheung's book "Systematic Theology", which is free online at:

http://www.rmiweb.org/books/theology2003.pdf

Do a quick search for "The Work of Christ"

I will give a brief description of it here:

The reason Adam sinned is the same reason anything happened. For the glory of God.

To deny that God had sovereign control over Adam's sin would be the same as affirming that there exists some other force in the universe outside of God's control.

1) God actively causes and works all things for His glory.
2) God is absolutely sovereign over everything.
3) Adam sinned.
4) God was sovereign over the act of Adam's sin
5) God actively causes and works Adam's sin out for His glory.

You, as well as I, even if we deny God's sovereignty and show that God had the power to not have Adam's sin. Did not God give us the Law? All he had to do was to make it so that there were no rules! No judgement then! No sin! But God did lay down the law, with His divine foreknowledge that Adam would transgress and plundge all of humanity into sin.

Why? Because He had planned also to send His Son to redeem His people, that His glory may be shown in their redemption and in the destruction of the reprobates. Revelation 18-19 demonstrate this exact thing happening. God is given praise for His righteous judgement upon Babylon.

[NotReady]

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But God did lay down the law, with His divine foreknowledge that Adam would transgress and plundge all of humanity into sin.


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But did God cause Adam's sin, force him to sin, is He the author of Adams's sin, did Adam have a real choice?

Calvin states that Adam had free will but he doesn't discuss it.

[udontknowmickey]

You realize that this question is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

I put forth a syllogism on evil's existence. If the assumptions are true (God created everything that has a beginning, Everything God does is good and just, Evil exists, only God has existed from eternity), and the logic is true (which I do believe and no one has pointed out otherwise), then the logic is inescapable. God created evil, and in doing so, it was good.

You are merely trying to rabbittrail the entire discussion so you don't have to face the facts.

Thus regardless of if I answer your question or not, my point has already been made unless you choose to dispute the original syllogism.

To answer your question anyways, just to show you that it poses no threat to my worldview:

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But did God cause Adam's sin, force him to sin, is He the author of Adams's sin, did Adam have a real choice?


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Did God directly cause Adam to sin? Yes.

Did God force Adam to sin?

In a sense yes, but the term "force" has a connotation that it is being resisted to an extent. To imply that Adam could have resisted God's will in this matter even a little bit would be to deny God's complete sovereignty over all things.

Is He the author of Adam's sin? We've already established this. If God is creator and absolute controller of everything, then God created Adam, and caused Him to sin. I have already affirmed that this leads us to conclude that God is the author of all sin. Adam's sin is but one example of this. Christ's crucifixion on the Cross is another.

God being the author of Adam's sin does not make God a sinner. In order for God to be a sinner, He must create a law, and break it, but this is impossible, because it is God who defines what our laws are.

Did Adam have a real choice?

You'll have to define what you mean by "real" against "fake." I deny that Adam's decision was made apart from God's sovereign will and thus was never "free" from God.

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Calvin states that Adam had free will but he doesn't discuss it.


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How is this relevant? You and I both know that the Reformers did some things/taught some things that were not in accordance to Scripture. Just because Calvin says one thing doesn't mean it's true. Just because you or I say something doesn't mean it's true. But when Scripture says something, it is true.

[David Sklansky]

"You are merely trying to rabbittrail the entire discussion so you don't have to face the facts."

Oh my God! A debate between Not Ready and udon'tknowmickey! I'm on the edge of my seat!