General AK play

[ImNotSoLucky]

Particularly early in 33s and under, how does everyone play AK, specifically on missed flops. I know it will depend on exact stack sizes and the number of players seeing the flop, but in general do you lay off if you miss the flop or go ahead and fire at the pot? This is assuming I typically raise/reraise w/ the hand. This is one of the biggest questions I have early in an SNG and would appreciate any responses. Thanks all.

[Isaac Newton]

Continuation bet of whatever seems to be doing the trick, then check/fold most of the time. I usually refire against short/weak players.

[KSKevin]

With only one or two callers (and assuming I was the initial raiser), I will almost always fire out if I miss the flop. Especially against one other player, you likely still have the best hand. Even if someone flops a draw, they are likely to fold to a strong continuation bet. If there are 3 or more callers and I miss the flop, I'm probably not going to bet out.

This situation can be frustrating to deal with because you can often go 4 or 5 bets in a row where you are raised. This makes the play seem like it is negative, because now you have lost 1/4 of your chips early in the tournament. One thing you dont want to do is to make a small bet after the flop, as you are just asking to let someone hit their gutshot straight or catch a set.

[45suited]

I think playing AK too strongly in the first couple levels is one of the biggest mistakes you can make. Against two or more callers, I rarely even bother with a C bet. Then again, on the first two levels, it has to be the right spot for me to even put a significant raise in pre-flop with AK.

Again, we have the matter of the loose PP fish in the 11s. They are fish - they tend to call way too much. So a hand like AK (especially UTG or early position) is not a hand I'm going to devote a lot of chips to. Say I'm UTG, put in a raise to 60 (or whatever your magic number is) and get 3 callers - a likely scenario. Flop comes 9,T,6. If the fish that called your initial raise has any piece of the board (as one of the 3 certainly will - either with a pair or a draw), why am I going to bother C betting? Check, hope for a free card, if there's any real betting, fold and move on. Make your money against the fish when you HIT a hand, not by spewing chips trying to bluff them when you miss.

Now, on the later levels, with significant blind and / or dead money out there, AK is very powerful and I play it strongly. Early, very carefully.

[ImNotSoLucky]

Do you have much experience in the 22s or 33s? If so, would your opinion be different on these levels? If not, does anyone care to respond with maybe more specific information to the 22 and 33 level? Thanks

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have much experience in the 22s or 33s? If so, would your opinion be different on these levels? If not, does anyone care to respond with maybe more specific information to the 22 and 33 level? Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have enough experience in the 22s to be able to comment on the general play there. (I only occassionally take a shot on the 22s, with decent success, but I might just be catching cards - too small of a sample size.) Somebody else would have to comment on the 22s and 33s specifically.

I can tell you though that since I stopped overplaying AK early, my results in the 11s have skyrocketed. I will say this again - if the fish overplay their hands (which we all know they do), if they are impossible to bluff (which most are at least when they have 800 chips), if they play small pairs like they are aces for example, then AK loses alot of its value early in the game. Alot of these players want to make a "great read" and put you on AK. So they play their 6s like aces. This is great when you have queens but it sucks when you have AK. At the 11s anyway, a pair of queens is MUCH MUCH more valuable than AK, IMO. Not even close.

So say you have AK in early position. If you're going to play the hand, you're going in for a raise. The problem is that I'm playing a hand OOP, to pick up squat for blinds, some guy with a PP behind me puts me on AK and plays his PP like a monster when the flop is rags. So 2/3 of the time, for a pot that wasn't even worth fighting for, I'm whiffing with AK OOP and faced with continuation betting with squat or having the pot taken from me if I check. Or worse yet, he flops a set. You figure this out when the flop comes A85 and you lose all your chips. Or, the flop comes A85, he doesn't hit a set, but you're not getting paid off because the ace scares him. Sure, sometimes you'll double up from some fool who called your initial raise with A10, but often you're just put in a tricky situation. And the players at the 11s are so bad that you can win without almost ever having to face a tricky situation if you're just patient.

With position or in later levels when the blinds are higher and / or there is a lot of dead money to pick up, AK is great. In the first two levels, especially out of position, I play it VERY carefully. I have found my above opinions to hold true in my limited experience at the 22s as well, but again, I am not an expert at that buy-in. I too would be interested in hearing the opinions of the higher buy-in players on this topic as I admittedly am just a relative newbie who is here to learn as well...

[Scuba Chuck]

First of all. Change ur username. An attitude change will prolly help your game.

Regarding your OP. It depends on your position, and number of players in the pot. Also, did you call a raise, or are you the raiser. Many factors to consider. There is no one good answer. Continuation bets, checking it through, check-fold behind, or fold are all options. Play around with it a little.

Some of the problems with continuation bets is that you'll find floaters check-raising you, and perhaps even betting into you.

Good luck at the tables.
Scuba

[Myst]

I dont do continuition bets like I used to with AK. It was a leak in my game that I plugged. I still do them.... just depends on the texture of the flop and the type of opposition Im facing.

AK is a tough hand to play early on. I would advise small raises preflop and play the hand for face value (TPTK).

[treeofwisdom7]

hey i read your last post on AK play. ive been having problems finishing 6-7 .. usually in level 4,5 when 6-7 players are still around.. on the button i push Kxs and up. and with 6 or 5 to act i'll push hands as weak as Q10s.. is this too weak?

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
hey i read your last post on AK play. ive been having problems finishing 6-7 .. usually in level 4,5 when 6-7 players are still around.. on the button i push Kxs and up. and with 6 or 5 to act i'll push hands as weak as Q10s.. is this too weak?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that it's hard to come up with set rules because you have to factor in the looseness of the players that you're pushing into. If you are finishing 6th and 7th alot, my first instinct would be that you are getting antsy and pushing too soon with weak hands. (Maybe you're a little too loose early and lose a few chips so you feel like you need to make a move?)

Now, here I'm about to say something that maybe only applies to the 11s. Players on the 11s don't understand the gap concept. They see no difference calling an all-in with A8 or KT than pushing with it. I mean, they will gladly call off 90% of their stack with KT rather than folding and pushing into the next guy. For this reason, at the low levels, if I am in the CO for example, I would rather push with 78s than with Kxs. I know that I will get flamed for this, but I don't care. You have to think about their CALLING ranges. I would rather have the live cardedness (if that's a word) of 78s than the high cardedness of Kxs. I only mean this for times that you are desperate and pushing from earlier than the button. The better your position gets, the more the high cardedness works in your favor IMO. But I can't tell you the number of times, in one of those "nightmare" games when there are 8 people left in level 4 and nobody wants to make a move, that I have pushed a low to mid suited connector, doubled up to 1400-1500 and then it's smooth sailing. My screen name is easily remembered (It's not my 2+2 name)... some guy last week wrote in the chatbox after I did this and beat an AJ, "There you go again turning [censored] into roses." I asked him if I played with him before and he said yeah, I'm always pushing "bad cards" and getting lucky. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

If you PM me with some HHs, I'd be happy to look at them.... even though I'm sure that I'm about to be called an idiot! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]