General "lead out on the flop" question

iceman5 · #1 06-18-2005, 11:16 PM

Leading out on the flop in a raised pot is something I almost never do and its something that I always see people here saying that should be done. Assuming that you guys are right, I need to make some changes in how I play when I call raises. Im just not sure of the logic behind it.

Assume $400 stacks and blinds of $2/$4

Example #1) I limp UTG with TT. MP raises to $16. I call and we're heads up.

Pot is $38. The flop is 982. I would normally check here and see what he does. Most times hes going to have overcards or a higher pair than me. If hes LAG or raises suited connectors thats a different story. Im assuming a typical player here.

I assume most people here would say to lead the flop, but if I lead out for $30 and he flat calls Im stuck in no mans land. If he raises, then I assume its a fold. What do you do if you lead and he flat calls and the turn is a brick? Most people I play against wont call my flop bet with AK or AQ so he probably has me beat if he calls. Do I check/fold?

Example #2) I limp with AK and get raised to $16. I call and we're heads up.

Pot $38. Flop K83. Wouldnt you rather check raise the inevitable continuation bet here than lead out and let him fold anything but AK, KK or AA?

Ive been reading this forum for 5-6 months now and most of the times I agree with the advice given, but when it comes to how I play a hand after calling a raise, my game varies greatly from what i see here, so I think I need to rework this part of my game.

Isaac Newton · #2 06-19-2005, 12:01 AM

I'd say you would have to lead out in both cases. You are in great shape after both. You can't play this game thinking that the other guy flopped the nuts every hand. You are in a heads up situation and the flop hit you. Back off only when they let you know that your hand is no good.
Slow play huge hands heads up, not TPTK.

iceman5 · #3 06-19-2005, 01:05 AM

I wasnt planning on slowplaying these hands.

Hand #1 Im ready to fold
Hand #2 I want to check raise and take the flop money plus his continuation bet money as oppossed to leading out and only getting the flop money

AZK · #4 06-19-2005, 01:15 AM

Wow, these are two situations I play completely different. Assuming villain isn't raising light and will very likely make a continuation bet on the flop, I check-raise hand 1 and check/call lead turn on hand 2. In the first hand, he is going to autobet overcards/pairs, but fold overs if you lead, so a check-raise picks up extra money from when he has overs, and when he calls/reraises your check-raise you can release. In the 2nd hand, I check/call, then lead because one of you is drawing to a few outs. He isn't going to fire again with QQ and you'll know if he has AA/KK/AK... I don't really see the logic of leading out first in either of these hands...could you elaborate on your reasons?

iceman5 · #5 06-19-2005, 01:31 AM

I dont lead out in either hand. That was my point. I keep reading posts here were people are advising to lead the flop in hands where Im ready to check/fold.

I could see a check raise with the TT hand if both players are deep, but I tend to just let him have it and check/fold.

In hand #2 with the AK, whats the difference between my plan of check raising and yours on check/calling the flop and leading the turn?

The only difference I see is that he gets to see another card for the same price he already paid (his continuation bet) with your plan.

Option 1) I check..he bets $30...I check raise to $90. He folds overcards and if he reraises me or calls...Im probably done.

Option 2(your plan)..You check..he bets $30..you call. Then you lead the turn for $60 into the $95ish pot. You paid the same $90 that I did, but now he got to see the turn card for the same $30 he already paid on the flop. The turn may have bailed him out.

jrforman · #6 06-19-2005, 01:31 AM

Hand 1- I would lead out for. If you check and he bets, its very hard for you to know if your ahead...If he raises or calls, use your read of the player and release your hand and/or proceed with caution on the turn

Hand 2- I would check/call lead the turn as well or check/call and check/raise turn. If your ahead of him on the flop, why do you want him to fold to your raise? You only want this if your playing scared.

However, you have to vary your game and you must change up the way you play these situations, but these would be my standard lines.

AZK · #7 06-19-2005, 01:36 AM

A couple reasons:

1) I don't mind someone drawing to 5 or less outs on me with certain hands...
2) It keeps the pot small against someone who bets big...

Your points are valid and it really depends on my given image for what I do. I don't like the check-raise because of the instant release when villain misses. Say he has AQ and hits an Ace on the turn...you are gold or flops a draw etc...

iceman5 · #8 06-19-2005, 01:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1- I would lead out for. If you check and he bets, its very hard for you to know if your ahead...If he raises or calls, use your read of the player and release your hand and/or proceed with caution on the turn

Hand 2- I would check/call lead the turn as well or check/call and check/raise turn. If your ahead of him on the flop, why do you want him to fold to your raise? You only want this if your playing scared.

However, you have to vary your game and you must change up the way you play these situations, but these would be my standard lines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand #2..see my response to AZK. I dont want him to see the turn for free. Its free if I just call the flop bet because he already paid by betting. I know Im ahead and dont want him to get another card without paying again. What if he has JJ and was making his continuation bet and the turn is a J?

This is a fundamental question that confuses me. Its similar to a hand I had the other day playing $5/$10. I raise with KK and got a caller. The flop was T86 and the caller led into me. I think Im ahead so do i raise or not? By your logic I shouldnt raise because I dont want him to fold, but shouldnt I make him pay more to see the next card? In this case I didnt raise and was following your logic. The turn was a 3....and guess what? He had 33 and I lost a bundle.

iceman5 · #9 06-19-2005, 01:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A couple reasons:

1) I don't mind someone drawing to 5 or less outs on me with certain hands...
2) It keeps the pot small against someone who bets big...

Your points are valid and it really depends on my given image for what I do. I don't like the check-raise because of the instant release when villain misses. Say he has AQ and hits an Ace on the turn...you are gold or flops a draw etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds are better for him to hit a Q at the turn than another ace. Then HE is gold. Im not arguing with you. Im really struggling with this question. Do I let him see another card for the same price he already paid when I know Im ahead? Odds are he wont improve, but when he does it costs alot.

jrforman · #10 06-19-2005, 01:48 AM

If he has a pocket pair inferior to your TPTK he is only approx 10% to improve on any given hand...So, yes 1 out of 10 times by not raising you lose the best hand, but at those points you have to trust your read and release your TPTK hands...If, however, you don't think he will throw a second barrel with a missed PP, than by all means raise the flop and get it over with. But, if he is going to throw a second barrel or call another bet you are losing more in the long run, than the hands where they hit a set.