Misapplying A Concept

So I still haven't read any books on NL, this forum has been where I've learned everything so far. HOH1 is en route as we speak, but until then...

I think I may not be too clear on when to check on the turn when holding TPGK, or TPTK, either in position or out.

Obviously out of position we don't want to build a huge pot, but is this less of a factor against a very predictable player, or a total donk? I'm much more likely to check turn oop after potting the flop if our opponent is a LAG, or a good player. But if opponent can call anything I like betting, or if I know for sure a raise means I'm beat I don't mind betting, or check/folding.

What about in position? I can see checking turn against good players after they called a pot sized flop bet because there isn't much we're beating, or they're calling with 3 outs, or checking behind LAGs because we don't want to be blown off our hand. Against bad players we just bet bet bet, right?

Are any of the reasons I mentioned significant? Am I missing something more important?

I know it'd be better posting individual hands, was just hoping someone could explain the reasons why we check sometimes and bet others.

If I need to be more clear, please let me know and I'll try and focus the question.

I think the flop might be the most important factor here. Are there likely draws? If there are no likely draws out there I'm way more likely to check than if straight and flush draws are out there.

Wow, I can't believe I didn't address that. Ya, thanks.

[soah]

Out of position I almost always fire again on the turn. Check/calling gives your opponent a pretty good idea of where you are at in the hand; and more importantly it gives them a lot of leverage in controlling how big of a pot they want to play (so checking the turn is not bad if stacks are short enough that you can just raise all in).

In position it comes down to:
- Do I have outs if I'm behind (ie, would a checkraise make me sick?)
- Is my opponent drawing?
- Will he fold?
- Will he bet the river if I check the turn?

Ah thanks for the response. Ya, betting flop and check/calling turn makes me sick. Only time I'd do this is if I was sure I had a lock hand and opponent may improve to a better 2nd best hand or would bluff..or if I wanted to do some weird check raise bluff (not at anything below 3/6 though!).

In position it looks like the same principles that apply to limit apply to no limit, they're just magnified.

BTW, we only check the turn to induce a bet from a worse hand if the opponent wouldn't of called the bet himself on the turn, right? Otherwise it'd just be better to bet the turn and check behind on the river, or value bet?

Also, do you factor in the chance an opponent may go all in on the river if we check the turn (assuming semi deep stacks, 200 bb or more) with a weaker hand where we may be blown off the best hand as opposed to betting the turn a decent amount and either checking behind on river or betting 1/2 pot - 2/3, maintaining control of the hand?

Thanks again!

[mason55]

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Also, do you factor in the chance an opponent may go all in on the river if we check the turn (assuming semi deep stacks, 200 bb or more) with a weaker hand where we may be blown off the best hand

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If they are all-in overbet bluffing the river OOP you will get their stack eventually.

Definitely. I know this case is rare, just wondering if it'd be significant or not when deciding to check behind.

[soah]

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Also, do you factor in the chance an opponent may go all in on the river if we check the turn (assuming semi deep stacks, 200 bb or more) with a weaker hand where we may be blown off the best hand as opposed to betting the turn a decent amount and either checking behind on river or betting 1/2 pot - 2/3, maintaining control of the hand?

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I factor in every hand I've seen him play.

Is my thinking sound here? Probably the part I'm most curious about.

"BTW, we only check the turn to induce a bet from a worse hand if the opponent wouldn't of called the bet himself on the turn, right? Otherwise it'd just be better to bet the turn and check behind on the river, or value bet?"

[soah]

In general that seems true. But it's leaving out a lot of things.

For example the guy check-calls the flop with 66 to see if you "really have it". If you check the turn this guy will then check-call the river because he wants to induce another bluff from you. Checking the turn may also get people to value bet the worst hand on the river. It's not as simple as "if I check here he will bluff the river."