Mini raises, is there a place for them?

[Percula]

I had a tough table for a little part of my 16hr session yesterday playing 5-150 spread limit. In seats 3, 4 are fulltime pro's (playing live is their income) both are excellent players. I am in seat 5, seat 6 is a successful player good and thinking, seat 9 is also a winning 40+ limit player.

The rest of the table was donks, calling station types. I was seeing a lot of mini raises from the donks, until this hand came up which made start to think...

Seat 6 is in CO and raises to $50 (about double the standard) and it folds to seat 9 the BB who calls.

It goes HU to an ace high flop, A83r. BB leads for $100, CO mini-raises to $200, BB RR another $150 (max bet) and asks CO if he just wants to get it AI. CO flashes me AQs and mucks. BB goes to muck after getting the pot pushed and one of the donks asks to see the hand, and of course the dealer flips 88 for middle set.

After the hand I talked to seat 6 about it. He too hates mini raises. But in this hand against a fairly solid aggressive player his thinking was that his mini raise would either be called meaning that seat 9 had an ace with a decent kicker and could reevaluate on the turn. Or if he was up against a set which was a logical hand range for seat 9 he would be played back at aggressively allowing him to get away fairly cheaply.

A orbit or so later I see the same line used by seat 3 vs seat 4 in a set over set hand.

A hand or so later I used it in reverse on seat 6 with my KK on a ace high flop. I lead for PSB he mini raised and I RR max and offered an AI, he mucked.

Now granted these are not the best players in the world and the situation was pretty specific to the players in the hands. But it seems like the line has some merit especially reversing it.

Thoughts?

[BobboFitos]

You're playing spread limit, so I dont see how a miniraise is avoidable.

[Ghazban]

The main problem I have with minraising is that there are so few situations where you are willing to give your opponent excellent pot odds that it makes your hand transparent. Minraising works against donks and that's about it; any thinking player will watch your showdowns and figure out what your minraises mean (some players minraise draws, some minraises very strong hands (sets, etc.), some minraise everything).

I've minraised exactly twice in my past 60K hands or so and I haven't regretted not minraising any other time in that span.

[tagtastic]

Yes, I use minraises almost exclusively against good, aggressive players. First reason for minraising is without reads, an aggressive plahyer will be betting alot of flops and will generally fold to this without a monster since this is the donks version of saying "I hit a set".

And the other reason, my favorite, is against a good player who also knows I am a good player. This just basically confuses the hell out of them since I never pull it against anyone else - works well with solid raising hands or air as this generally incites a re-raise or fold vs. good players. I used to avoid confrontation with other players I knew were long term winners and good players, now I often relish in the mind games (and subsequent profits!)

[Leptyne]

Garland advised keeping track of individual minraises pre- and post flop. If you routinely use this good players will know what this means. Good play, but do it with air, and everything inbetween. Also do a check/minraise.

Does piss a lot of people off.

[ludo72]

I use min-raises against good and aggressive players as bluffs when the pot has already grown big. Here's an example from tonight:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 3 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($399.10)
Hero ($400)
BB ($1208.15)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $36</font>, Hero calls $28.

Flop: ($80) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $69</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $150</font>, BB folds.

Final Pot: $299

Villains 3-bet handrange against me is much wider than {AA-QQ, AK} and he has made close to pot sized continuation bets every time he has raised.