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  #11  
Old 12-19-2005, 04:06 PM
swarm swarm is offline
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Default Re: out of line?

[ QUOTE ]
fair enough, but given villain's line what holdings of his look me up given my action?

i guess the jist of my post is wanting to know how often i can get away with these types of plays, repping a FH, flush, J, K, making it difficult for anything short of AK to call me. it looks maniacal, but what hands look me up here? think of it from villain's perspective.

maybe i am insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need more of a stack to pull off these bluffs, plus it's a hell of a lot easier when you are in position as the aggressor, the seed of doubt is already planted. You are going to get slaughtered entering large pots out of position not as the aggressor.

What are you reppin with your line that checks twice?

To me it seemed that you entered this pot without a plan and tried to back pedal into one without giving consideration to stack sizes, or image until villans weak bet on the turn. When a Laggy villan like this is super aggressive preflop and then slows down to a halt after the flop even though hero checked twice, something smells.
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  #12  
Old 12-19-2005, 04:28 PM
Rotating Rabbit Rotating Rabbit is offline
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Posts: 528
Default Re: out of line?

uhm its your whole mindset thats wrong

what were your thoughts preflop? 90% of the time the only way you can win this hand is with a check raise bluff, in which case why not call with any 2 cards and make this play? answer cos it sucks.

bluffing ppl who are playing in a style that provokes (ie stupid bet sizes) rarely works.

and you decided to make move on a turn board where, considering this, almost all of his hands call.

The only hand he can put you on is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and even that would be loose preflop + if he has one of those cards the games up. Your acting/thinking on the river in another situation could be a small flush but the preflop action rules that out.

Really you're representing a bluff, and the only hand he folds is the lone A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

goodluck ur gonna need it
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  #13  
Old 12-19-2005, 04:35 PM
Ghazban Ghazban is offline
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Default Re: out of line?

First off, you want to figure out what the huge preflop raise is for this guy so, in the future, you'll have a huge advantage of knowing exactly what he's holding when he does it again. For some players, this is a scared AA that's afraid of playing postflop; for some, its JJ/TT that "knows" there'll be an ace on the flop and screw him; for others, its a pure bluff that they'll keep pushing hard all the way no matter what falls (I know a player on Party who makes very large preflop reraises with junk-- 72o, 62s, etc-- every once in a while and then will pot or repot any amount of betting/raising postflop. I've stacked him 3 times in about 1000 hands just by calling down his hyperaggression with hands that figure to be best against low trash).

Anyway, even if you don't know what the fat preflop raise means, you still have pretty decent implied odds to call and try to spike a set. Players that raise preflop this large will almost always make a big continuation bet on the flop even if they're capable of laying it down later (except the guys that do this raise with KK and then check behind all streets if an A flops; yes they do exist).

Once you get this butt-fugly flop, I'd be done with the hand. The turn checkraise is a nice attempt at picking it up but, once that gets called, I'd be done with the hand as you don't have enough behind to really put villain to a tough decision. The hand would be interesting if you spiked a 6 on the river (particularly if it was a spade) but you need a read that villain likes to make big laydowns to follow through on the river given what did fall.

I'm not sure what to put villain on. It could be QsQx or TsTx or even a weirdly played KK. If you got a fold on the end from a better hand, I'd be surprised but you might make him fold his bricked AsQx (which would be good in many ways as showing this hand down could drastically change your image which you may or may not want)-- the money isn't really deep enough to call the turn and fold the river with a paired hole card (with or without a spade redraw).

My real problem with your line is that it doesn't make any sense from villain's perspective. What holding can you have that checks the flop and checkraises the turn? Would you play the nut flush this way? Most people would lead the turn with that holding to build the pot. What about a set? Would you really check a set twice and give him 2 free shots to catch a 4th spade? That, too, seems unlikely. From villain's perspective, I have a hard time putting you on a legitimate hand that would call such a large preflop raise and then check twice on a board like this. What exactly are you trying to represent?
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  #14  
Old 12-19-2005, 09:02 PM
CamelZoo CamelZoo is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
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Default Re: out of line?

ty for the perfect response ghazban as always.

in retrospect it was one of those in the moment hands where the combination of the 3 spades, paired board, K, and my strange play (he could interpret my flop action as a missed c/r, and my turn c/r as strength, i did after all call his monster pf raise) led me to think i could push him off a better hand. obv i am losing to AK/KK/AA/flopped flush, but otherwise i think he has trouble calling off his stack.

ultimately he timed down and folded showing QQ no [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] much to my delight. but after reading this thread and thinking about the hand rationally i misplayed it and got quite lucky, perhaps b/c of my image, and maybe bc he is wt, who knows. thanks for the thoughtful responses.

i got a pm saying if i were to follow a similar line it would be c/r the turn all in, but this is sketchy as well, no?
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