Hell's existence seems incorrect

[hmkpoker]

As some of you know, I'm an atheist. And somewhat serious, even proud about it.

However, there are rare occasions every here and then, sometimes when I'm by myself for a long period of time and alone with my thoughts, when I think "man, what if those Christians are right? What if God and Heaven and Hell are all true and I'm going to be damned for eternity unless I accept?" The worry (although, I can honestly say, it is minor) gives a brief adrenaline release, I toss it over in my mind for a few seconds, know where and why I stand on things, and then my mind goes on to something else.

In no way is this logically affirmative of Christian beliefs. This happens mostly when I am stressed. Maybe I have a lot of work to do tomorrow or I'm worried about bills; lots of irrational thoughts can occur in a person's mind when he's paranoid. Plus the righteousness and confidence of the believers, the number of the believers, all these things can activate the survival instinct in a person and make him want to do whatever is necessary to escape the potential danger. (Y2K comes to mind)

I think every atheist, no matter how strong, has a little shred of worry every now and then. Heck, I remember feeling the same way after a fiery discussion/debate from a guest lecturer in my Islamic Philosophy class.

I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.

And I doubt I'd be the first.

So here's the problem: from what I gather, "God has a plan for us." That is, love him, love his works, love what Jesus did, glorify him out of your love, and you will recieve eternal life. I think the rationale behind creating us (NotReady, help me out with this) was that it brings more glory to God, since we accepted him out of our free will. However, if a person can be threatened into believing in God, then I fail to see how that glorifies him.

Another question is why not non-existence for non-believers? Why doesn't God just obliterate the soul of an atheist upon death? Non-existence is a much, much easier concept to handle...after all, I believe that that (more or less) is my post-mortem fate! Without the terrifying threat of damnation, people would not choose Christianity out of fear.

And, it should seem like a more fitting consequence for atheists [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Trantor]

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I think every atheist, no matter how strong, has a little shred of worry every now and then.

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Not me, ever. An exception to prove your rule!

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I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

read this again when you are sober and tell me you didn't really mean it!

You can't just decide to believe in something for safeties sake! or do you believe you can?

Your credibility depends on the correct answer.

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I think the rationale behind creating us (NotReady, help me out with this) was that it brings more glory to God, since we accepted him out of our free will

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I'm not NotReady but what I understand Christians to believe is that God created us purely out of agape. Agape is a completely selfless love. The reason for this is that God did not need humans, there was no desire he needed to fulfill. He just did it - and the explanation for this is agape. As an example of agape, take Mother Theresa. She loved people without expecting anything in return. I'm not saying I believe this stuff, but this is my understanding of it.

[Jeff V]

Good post-very interesting.

This also brings up the question of does "insurance" salvation work? If you confess with your mouth, but don't believe in your heart has salvation taken place?

I do think that even if fear brought you to christianity, it definately wouldn't keep you there.




I liked this line.

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And, it(non-existance) should seem like a more fitting consequence for atheists [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Want your cake and eat it too huh? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
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I think every atheist, no matter how strong, has a little shred of worry every now and then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, ever. An exception to prove your rule!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't have perfect insight into everyone's mind. This was subjective reasoning on my part. However, the degree of worry that I had in mind that would qualify in my statement was so minute as to be imperceptible, bear that in mind.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

read this again when you are sober and tell me you didn't really mean it!

You can't just decide to believe in something for safeties sake! or do you believe you can?


[/ QUOTE ]

I am quite sober. If you scare someone enough, they will do what they need to survive. However, they must believe the threat. Logic can be a practical escape from the threat if the believer holds it to be untrue with sufficient certainty.

Note also the words "in the unlikely event." I seriously, seriously doubt that it would ever happen, but stranger things have happened and I'm willing to explore the possibility as an intellectual exercise here.

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Your credibility depends on the correct answer.

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Who the hell are you, my professor? You missed the entire point of this post.

[hmkpoker]

Thanks for the insight...I still want NotReady's take on it though [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think every atheist, no matter how strong, has a little shred of worry every now and then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, ever. An exception to prove your rule!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't have perfect insight into everyone's mind. This was subjective reasoning on my part. However, the degree of worry that I had in mind that would qualify in my statement was so minute as to be imperceptible, bear that in mind.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

read this again when you are sober and tell me you didn't really mean it!

You can't just decide to believe in something for safeties sake! or do you believe you can?


[/ QUOTE ]

I am quite sober. If you scare someone enough, they will do what they need to survive. However, they must believe the threat. Logic can be a practical escape from the threat if the believer holds it to be untrue with sufficient certainty.

Note also the words "in the unlikely event." I seriously, seriously doubt that it would ever happen, but stranger things have happened and I'm willing to explore the possibility as an intellectual exercise here.

[ QUOTE ]
Your credibility depends on the correct answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the hell are you, my professor? You missed the entire point of this post.

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I meant credibilty to me not universally but it was a bit tounge in cheek! You might has well have said you might become a satanist or a cathiolic or a muslim or any God damn thing that threatens non-believers with eternal damnation.

If you actually believe there is even the slightest possibility you would convert through fear, that is something I can't comprehend.

[hmkpoker]

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If you actually believe there is even the slightest possibility you would convert through fear, that is something I can't comprehend.

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The human mind is more malleable than you might think. Yes, it is very, very improbable, and I'd be exercising a lot of creativity to come up with a series of situations that would lead to it. Nevertheless, it is not impossible. I'm sure it's happened before. With such phenomenally abstract situations such as these, it is reasonable to at least acknowledge the possibility, no matter how improbable.

May David Sklansky rape your children if you don't understand this.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.


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When us Catholic types receive the Sacrament of Reconcilliation (confess our sins to receive absolution) your level of Faith is sufficient to have sins resolved...meaning you're sorry for your sins because you fear eternal damnation. This is called Imperfect Contrition. Repenting because you are sorry that you offended God is called Perfect Contrition . The reason that the former is sufficient is because we are human, and not every one can muster the level of Faith and love of God that the second one demands.

I think that a corrolary to this is that if you believed simply out of fear of the potential consequences of non-belief, your belief is less than ideal but superior to non-belief and gives you a fighting chance in the Lord's eyes.

[chezlaw]

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...meaning you're sorry for your sins because you fear eternal damnation.

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what abut me? I'm sorry for my sins despite not fearing eternal damnation.

Isn't that better?

chez