Line Check - BB Hand Level 1

[captainzodiac]

i really think you shouldn't fold here preflop,i see your point of saving 20 chips,but the implied odds in a min raised pot are huge,when a player makes this poor play by min raisig at early blind levels to the blinds with hands like ak,then goes broke and calls the guy a fish for calling preflop,he actually made the much worse play by min raising in my opinion. when you min raise,basically you're saying you want a call,and you're getting one,so you had better be sure you flop a good one,if you want to risk your stack.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
i really think you shouldn't fold here preflop,i see your point of saving 20 chips,but the implied odds in a min raised pot are huge,when a player makes this poor play by min raisig at early blind levels to the blinds with hands like ak,then goes broke and calls the guy a fish for calling preflop,he actually made the much worse play by min raising in my opinion. when you min raise,basically you're saying you want a call,and you're getting one,so you had better be sure you flop a good one,if you want to risk your stack.

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your implied odds aren't nearly as high as you guys are saying..

first the flop has to come 94x, 99x, or 44x.
second villain has to have an actual hand they're willing to commit all their chips (or a lot of them atleast) with.
third they dont draw out on you, especially if you 'hit' 94x.. you'll get counterfitted fairly often.

Sure it's 'only' 20 chips, but it's a bad call, and those 20 chips that are 'only' 2% of your stack now, if you get to the final table those '20' chips would have been 2-6 thousand. That's not entirely true, but those 20 chips impact your tournament more than you think. Any future double ups and that 20 turns into 40 chips you could have had... and blah blah blah.

[benneh]

[ QUOTE ]
i really think you shouldn't fold here preflop,i see your point of saving 20 chips,but the implied odds in a min raised pot are huge,when a player makes this poor play by min raisig at early blind levels to the blinds with hands like ak,then goes broke and calls the guy a fish for calling preflop,he actually made the much worse play by min raising in my opinion. when you min raise,basically you're saying you want a call,and you're getting one,so you had better be sure you flop a good one,if you want to risk your stack.

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why do you think AK will come along for the ride on a 94x flop?

Maybe if the flop comes A49, but that's a bit much of a flop to ask for. Your implied odds are not huge. Even if villain has an overpair, he will still draw out on you on the turn or river via counterfeiting your 2 pair or hitting his set.

[KJL]

I agree with ExitOnly here also. You have very little implied odds here and there is also a possibility you are beat. Min-raiser probably has a big hand, but the guy who called the min-raise might have a small-medium pocket pair and make a set on the flop. Even if you are not beat, with a premium hand your oppenent has a good chance to outdraw you. But considering you did call, there is nothing wrong with how you played it.

[badluckal]

[ QUOTE ]


your implied odds aren't nearly as high as you guys are saying..

first the flop has to come 94x, 99x, or 44x.
second villain has to have an actual hand they're willing to commit all their chips (or a lot of them atleast) with.
third they dont draw out on you, especially if you 'hit' 94x.. you'll get counterfitted fairly often.

Sure it's 'only' 20 chips, but it's a bad call, and those 20 chips that are 'only' 2% of your stack now, if you get to the final table those '20' chips would have been 2-6 thousand. That's not entirely true, but those 20 chips impact your tournament more than you think. Any future double ups and that 20 turns into 40 chips you could have had... and blah blah blah.

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On one hand, I understand your point, and this is a bad call according to ABC poker, and the implied odds are not as great as they may seem.

On the other hand, I feel like it is +EV these small risks early in the tournament when there are still fish around who can't let go of AK/KQ/KJ or a flush draw here.

To sum it up, I have trouble reconciling the notion that I should fold pre-flop here with the notion that I need to accumulate early. Does that make sense?

[Exitonly]

No, you accumulate chips in a MTT by pushing edges... not pushing -EV situations.

Now i could be wrong, but i really really don't think so.. and i think a big misunnderstand a lot of players have is calculating implied odds. ..

and you mention that he can't let go of AK... well in order for him to consider keeping it, the 'x' i mentioned in my possible hands you like, has to be a K or A. so.. like an 8th of the time that you hit the flop the way you like, it'll also hit his AK.. and even then he may not pay you off every time, and you may get drawn out on, or you may not be ahead at all... plus times when you hit top pair on a 9-rag-rag flop and get owned by an overpair.

Think you should avoid playing these hands unless you have a specific read and know you can take the hand away from the villain.. and then the cards don't matter.

But .. you're not at that level (neither am I, or like 95% of the posters here)

[badluckal]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with ExitOnly here also. You have very little implied odds here and there is also a possibility you are beat. Min-raiser probably has a big hand, but the guy who called the min-raise might have a small-medium pocket pair and make a set on the flop. Even if you are not beat, with a premium hand your oppenent has a good chance to outdraw you. But considering you did call, there is nothing wrong with how you played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds a little weak tight to me.

Mini-raise in Level 1 does not mean big hand very often in my experiences, and worrying about a set here is not something I can readily fathom considering that there is only one way to deal 99 or 44 given known cards, and I don't see 55 calling on the flop.

I considered a better two pair such as K9 or K4, but given my holding this was highly unlikely. And a premium hand does not have a good chance to outdraw me.

[Exitonly]

Well your play after the flop is fine.. i just think it was a mistake getting there...

[badluckal]

[ QUOTE ]
No, you accumulate chips in a MTT by pushing edges... not pushing -EV situations.

Now i could be wrong, but i really really don't think so.. and i think a big misunnderstand a lot of players have is calculating implied odds. ..

and you mention that he can't let go of AK... well in order for him to consider keeping it, the 'x' i mentioned in my possible hands you like, has to be a K or A. so.. like an 8th of the time that you hit the flop the way you like, it'll also hit his AK.. and even then he may not pay you off every time, and you may get drawn out on, or you may not be ahead at all... plus times when you hit top pair on a 9-rag-rag flop and get owned by an overpair.

Think you should avoid playing these hands unless you have a specific read and know you can take the hand away from the villain.. and then the cards don't matter.

But .. you're not at that level (neither am I, or like 95% of the posters here)

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I agree I am certainly not at that level. Furthermore, I have played at the same table as you and respect your play, and I appreciate your help in analysing this hand and other similar situations [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Putting the pre-flop marginality aside, as I think I am decent enough to get away from anything except an excellent flop here, do you not think that I am pretty far ahead here and that I am pushing an edge?

If you put both of the villans on a range of group 1-3 here, I am ahead 60/20/20. If you put one villan on Group 1-3 and the other to AK/KQ/KJ/JJ/TT, I am ahead 63/17/20. In reality, I felt like the most likey holdings for villans were much narrower, say a naked flush draw and AK/KQ/KJ.

And although I realize I am risking my tournament life on this middle-bottom pair, I am not sure how to get away from it. Check-calling is weak, I don't gain any FE by check-raising, and any other bet will probably commit me to call on the river

Thanks again for the insight!

[Exitonly]

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Putting the pre-flop marginality aside, as I think I am decent enough to get away from anything except an excellent flop here, do you not think that I am pretty far ahead here and that I am pushing an edge?

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Don't mean to be a broken record, but that was my point.. the 'excellent' flops won't come often enough, and when they come you won't win enough chips often enough.

But enough of that, Theres not much more i can say
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As for your flop/turn line.. i think it's the right way to go about it, you have a hand you cna't easily get away from, if MP has a set, well that sucks (see: point i've made over and over) but the odds the pot would be offering you would be too big. and the turn bet is good, you're pretty much not going to fold to any kind of action, and this bet will get called by a lot of worse hands.