Taming the wild Ass-Monkey

[Rockfish]

Here's the setup. I'm running over the Paradise 0.5/1 game. I'm not a great player. Recently, I've been tight, aggressive and judicious in when to lay it down. I'm probably greater than 3 standard deviations over where I should be in terms of win rate and I acknowledge that.

The games are loose and mostly passive. People are calling raises cold with ungodly cheese and bluffing way too much. I've been sticking to premium hands, raising more than calling, and folding most of the time. I haven't called a raise cold yet.

Now. I move up to 1/2 to try my hand knowing that statistically fewer players are seeing the flop. I'm playing the same premium hands using the same strategy, and I can't win a hand. I've done this twice for two short sessions and each time I've lost exactly what I could afford so the investment is not a problem. The problem is how it's happening.

Here is what I have observed. Last night I played premium hands, raising when first in, avoiding offsuit cards, pushing top pair top kicker, only to see my buy-in and a little more disappear. Every time I raised, the two players to my left called cold. Every time. Inevitably one of them (usually one in particular) would catch up on the river and then bet into me. They weren't playing good cards either. It was stuff like T4s with a T and a K on the flop sticking around to catch a third ten on the river against my TPTK with AK and the like.

I like to think I did not tilt. OK, once I raised with A8s in late position with 4 callers in front but dumped on the flop when I missed completely.

My question is this. Given that you are almost sure that these two conditions exist: 1) the two players to your left are going to call your raises (along with others now that the pot is offering good odds because nobody is reraising) and; 2) the only players sticking around after the flop have caught a piece of it (which I accept as reasonable by the way), how do YOU adjust.

All opinions and advice will be welcome.

Rockfish

[Jeff V]

1. Raise MORE w/ hands that do well multi-way
2. Make them pay for calling w/ weak pairs/kickers
These games are rollercoasters, but they can't keep catching you forever. In these situations though, I think top-top is way more vulnerable than usual because it's hard to tell when someone hits their kicker. In these games I usually bring a bigger than normal buy-in also. And hey- you're playing on Paradise, so finding less of a crapshoot game shouldn't that hard if that's what you want. Jeff
P.S. I used to play more timid in these games fearing suckouts, but found that costs almost as much as the suckouts do.

[Rockfish]

Raising MORE, is part of what I perceive to be the problem. Nobody else was raising in this particular game. I never go a chance to re-raise. Nobody raised me before or after when I was holding premium cards. Anybody else raised and it was heads-up or three handed and a bet on the flop by the pre-flop raiser took it down (hands I was not in on).

On the other hand, when I raised with my AKs UTG, the whole world called. Seven handed for two bets but no re-raises.

I think I don't play well after the flop. Last night didn't give me anything to build confidence on either. I honestly don't know whether I was outplayed last night or outsucked-out on (is that a word?) I mean, when everyone calls your raise and it's seven handed, that's got to be the same as playing in an unraised pot. Post-flop it was hard to tell where the strength was. I mean I watched a hand in which there were no raises pre-flop, the flop was AQQ and the guy holding AQo didn't bet until the river after others at the table had taken a shot at it.

I try to play 2+2. I've got a lot to learn.

I do know how to laugh when my AKs gets beat by KJo when a J hits the river though. Not tilting helps.

Rockfish

[J.R.]

On the other hand, when I raised with my AKs UTG, the whole world called. Seven handed for two bets but no re-raises.

What more do you want? AKs wins well more than its fair share here, this is a gravy train. Variance can suck, but the money follows the math and will soon end up in your stack. Hang in there!

[Rockfish]

Absolutely.

Thanks for the encouragement, and I agree.

Maybe I'm just venting rather than asking questions here. I know I need to improve my play post-flop. I think I just wasn't thinking about the fact that with that many cold-callers you have no more information than if there was no raise at all pre-flop.

Thanks again,

Rockfish

[Ulysses]

Well, in this game, playing the way you describe (playing and raising w/ premium/multi-way hands) has you playing with an edge over your opponents. But, you lost. So, one of two things happened.

1) The cards just didn't run your way and you had an unlucky streak where you just couldn't make a hand.

or

2) You played poorly post-flop, negating your pre-flop advantage over your opponents.

Post some hands you're unsure about.

[eh923]

You've mentioned how two of the guys play, but not too much about the rest of the table, so take my comment with a grain of salt. Also, any constructive rebuttal to my comments are welcome!

In the same situation (maniacs to the left) I would try loosening up my starting requirements in terms of multiway hands such as playing more medium/low suited connectors. I also wouldn't raise as much for the better multi-player hands. You know that you're going to get called by the maniacs, but you also could drive out the other players who might call 1 bet, but not two. This cuts into your odds.

Also, and everyone here can grill me on this, but tighten up on heads-up hands. Maybe fold pocket 9's and 10's if you'd originally planned on calling, unless there's enough callers ahead of you to warrant staying to flop a set.

[Bob T.]

Get in a different seat, or a different game. With the two calling stations to your left, you are always acting first after the flop, and you are just in a bad situation. Put it in your notes that you want a seat with these players on your right.

[Rockfish]

Interesting comment about pocket 9s and Ts.

I lost two pots with pocket 9s raising first in from late MP only to be called by both of the Ass-Monkeys.

I think I didn't play well post-flop as I've said previously, but knowing they would call raises cold from early position with T4s and would chase with overcards didn't help me put them on hands.

I clearly need to re-read the section in HPFAP21 on loose games and playing with maniacs.

Rockfish

[Rockfish]

This was the first advice I expected to get. I thought this was something I should have done but didn't listen to the little voice inside my head. After all, they were calling raises cold when I had AKs. The hands just didn't come through.

Rockfish