Small Blind Play

[Rockfish]

Help me learn please.

0.5/1 table at Paradise. It's loose passive with not much pre-flop raising and much cheese being shown down.

I'm in the small blind with 8Ts. All fold to the button who calls. He seems to be playing too many hands but hasn't shown down many. In other words, I think he's calling liberally hoping to hit the flop, but folds when he misses. I raise hoping to play head's up against him. My plan is to bet most flops hoping to win right there. Background for this is that I've only shown down AKs and QQ from the blinds so far after raising.

BB calls as does the button. The BB seems to be a reasonably tight but passive player who I thought would fold to this raise.

It turns out I was right about the button who folded to my flop bet, but the BB stuck with me.

Should I just bag this play and call? This doesn't seem like a foldable hand in the SB although I'm always looking for a reason to fold pre-flop.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Rockfish

[RockLobster]

Hi Rockfish--

0.5/1 table at Paradise. It's loose passive with not much pre-flop raising and much cheese being shown down.

Sounds typical [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

I'm in the small blind with 8Ts. All fold to the button who calls. He seems to be playing too many hands but hasn't shown down many. In other words, I think he's calling liberally hoping to hit the flop, but folds when he misses. I raise hoping to play head's up against him. My plan is to bet most flops hoping to win right there.

I would only play T8s with several limpers. At this level, you're raise probably doesn't get much respect. I think this is actually a pretty good play at higher levels (maybe 2-4 or 3-6).

Background for this is that I've only shown down AKs and QQ from the blinds so far after raising.

This doesn't carry much weight at this level, unfortunately. Many of these guys are either playing several tables or downloading porn while playing.

Should I just bag this play and call? This doesn't seem like a foldable hand in the SB although I'm always looking for a reason to fold pre-flop.

I don't follow... sounds like you checked the flop, BB bet, and button folded. So... what was the flop? Did it include an Ace or a King? I don't think trying for a pure bluff from this point forward is a good play. Please give more info...

[Rockfish]

The flop came 9 high with one spade.

I bet, BB called, and as predicted the button folded.

I bluffed the turn, BB called. We checked down the river. He had a 9 for a pair.

I'm less concerned about analyzing the post-flop play because the button folded which I had predicted. The surprise was the BB and that's why the question about the play pre-flop.

The main question which maybe I didn't state clearly was, should I try that play pre-flop with a hand like 8Ts?

At the time I was thinking about how if I call, I'm pretty weak tight post-flop and I won't know where I stand unless I flop an OK draw with a pair, something like two more spades and an 8. I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to fold this hand from the SB in this situation, but maybe I am. I thought given previous action that I had at least a reasonable chance of stealing a small pot on the flop if things went my way, meaning BB folds pre-flop and the button folds to a bet on the flop.

Perhaps I'm thinking too hard for this limit. I want to improve my game.

Thanks for your help.
Rockfish

[pudley4]

Absolutely do not fold T8s in this situation. You're getting 5-1 on a hand that will win slightly more than it's "fair share" of hands 3-way.

Best case - You raise, BB folds, Button calls. You've put in 1 1/2 of the 5 sb in the pot. The flop will hit you about 1/3 of the time. The flop will hit the Button about 1/3 of the time. Assume you will bet out regardless of what flops. If button calls the flop bet, you will check the turn.

Scenario 1: flop hits both you and the button (1/9 times). You bet, he calls. You check-call the turn and the river gets checked through. Your hand is good approx 1/2 the time (T8s is good against a random hand approx 52% of the time). Half the time you'll win 6 1/2 sb, half the time you'll lose 4 1/2 sb. Your net is [(1/2)*(6 1/2) - (1/2)*(4 1/2)] = 1 sb.

Scenario 2: flop misses you and hits button (2/9 times). You bet, he calls. You check-fold the turn. You've lost 4 1/2 sb.

Scenario 3: flop hits you and misses button (2/9 times). You bet, he folds. You win 3 1/2 sb.

Scenario 4: flop misses you and misses button (4/9 times). You bet, he folds. You win 3 1/2 sb.

The EV of this situation is (1/9)*(1) + (2/9)*(-4 1/2) + (2/9)*(3 1/2) + (4/9)*(3 1/2) = 1/9 - 1 + 7/9 + 14/9 = 13/9 sb.

Worst case - the BB calls preflop. You're still getting 4 1/2 - 1 1/2 (3-1) on a hand that is only 2-1 against winning.

I think it's a good raise.

[Allan]

Where are the scenarios where you get raised somewhere along the way?

Allan

[pudley4]

The scenarios are for when he's heads up with the button. The only time he has to worry about being raised is if the flop hits both him and the button. This scenario only happens about 10% of the time, and he's not going to be raised much (by this player) in this scenario. He might run across this 2 or 3% of the time, so it's not going to affect his total EV more than a small fraction of a bet.

[Bob T.]

I think that this is a reasonable play. If you keep thinking like this, you will be dangerous to others eventually.

BUT, as you found out, it doesn't depend on what you think your image is, it depends on how the BB plays and how he percieves you. You have to figure out that by seeing how he reacts to your plays. You also have to figure out what it means when he calls the flop, and you did find out that if you have an overpair, or top pair top kicker, he will pay you off to the end. Now use that information.

[elysium]

wey'll rockfish, oftenly even a 2+2'er needs the numerical and pictatorial identity of the cards. oh, not so much on the turn or river, we can do without. but here, your keeping the flop a mystery don't you see? i think even a 4+4'er would be a bit embarrassed if he recommended that you fold and, to his unawares, the flop came all tens and eights.( if i could figure out how to get this paragraphie thing to work, i'd be starting a new paragraph here)so, in the future, for answer enhancement,etc. well, get on that computer or typewriter and punch in how that 'ol flop landed, even if fickle. rockfish, you would be happily surprised at how well we could extricate you from that knot of a holding of eight ten out of the small that albeit, could be the nuts rockfish; could be the nuts.

[Rockfish]

You, sir (or in the unlikely case of being a madam, madam), are a poet and a philosopher.

I shall endeavor to persevere in that regard.

Your faithful servant, sir (or see above for madam, madam),

Rockfish

[pudley4]

Except he wasn't asking for advice on what to do on the flop. He asked "Should I just bag this play and call? This doesn't seem like a foldable hand in the SB although I'm always looking for a reason to fold pre-flop."

He's asking if he should just call preflop, or maybe even fold (although he could be more clear about it).