|
|
#21
08-10-2005, 11:58 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Raising AJo UTG
Are there any mid-high stakes players that are winning with AJo UTG over 50K hands or more? Would anyone be willing to post their BB/hand with AJo UTG and similar hands such as ATo and AQo.
I mean SSH is one of the best books out there, but is there any reason behind their hand rankings other than 'because sklansky/miller say so' ? I'm interested in hard data not hand waving. For me this means either sims, or PT stats. 
|
|
#22
08-10-2005, 01:10 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Raising AJo UTG
[ QUOTE ]
Are there any mid-high stakes players that are winning with AJo UTG over 50K hands or more? Would anyone be willing to post their BB/hand with AJo UTG and similar hands such as ATo and AQo. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, there are mid-high stakes players winning with AJo. Whether or not they will share PT stats is another thing. I don't have 50k hands yet, so I couldn't help you out (and work this summer hasn't helped), but I guarantee you there's a reason why the people over there will berate you if you tried posting some of the ideas from this thread over there. [ QUOTE ] I mean SSH is one of the best books out there, but is there any reason behind their hand rankings other than 'because sklansky/miller say so' ? I'm interested in hard data not hand waving. For me this means either sims, or PT stats. [/ QUOTE ] I agree that not everything in books should be taken as the bible, but I don't agree that sims constitute "hard data". stats > books >> sims And even that's not always true. If I see that hand X is winning over 200k hands, that probably means it's a winning hand. If I see that hand Y is losing after 200k hands, that could mean it's a losing hand, or it could mean that I'm playing it poorly. Note: I realize that strategies in mid-high stakes games are not always applicable to small stakes games. For example, it's standard to raise 77+ UTG in the mid-high stakes forum, but if I'm playing small stakes, I'd rather limp it. So there could be an argument made that AJo is playable UTG in a 20/40 game, but not in a 2/4 game. If you're worried about something like that, you may want to talk to players who play the same stakes as yourself.
|
|
#23
08-10-2005, 04:46 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Raising AJo UTG
You are correct in thinking that you should question what you read, but you would be better served questioning the non-2+2 material out there and simply accepting the SSH charts, as they do work: for me and for countless others on this board. It's all about that p.82... Barron Vangor Toth BarronVangorToth.com
|
|
#24
08-10-2005, 06:07 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Raising AJo UTG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] AJo is a raise UTG according to SSHE. If that's not convincing enough, I don't think a program simulating poker should be either. [/ QUOTE ] This is important, as SSH wins the Pepsi Challenge any day of the week against Random Software X. I'm all for people using whatever tools are out there in order to better their game, but if something directly contradicts SSH, you are doing FAR more harm than good to your game. Even if you get some semblance of "good practice" out of said software, the contradictory (read: wrong) advice is still more harmful than any positive from it. I've played in dozens of live casinos over the last few years, and I haven't found one game at the $10-$20 or lower level where the situation wasn't correct to raise UTG AJo, given the table texture. Barron Vangor Toth BarronVangorToth.com [/ QUOTE ] What does that mean, that the table texture is exactly the same at all 10-20 limit games and below? That is certainly not my experience. Maybe I'm just picking bad games, but the vast majority of the 10-20 and 15-30 games I play in (in NYC) are far tougher and more aggressive than the typical "SSHE game". I have to agree with Abdul Jalib. AJo is a fold from UTG in most full ring games, as are the baby pairs and some others that SSHE recommends playing.
|
|
#25
08-10-2005, 07:22 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Raising AJo UTG
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm just picking bad games.... [/ QUOTE ] Could be. [ QUOTE ] I have to agree with Abdul Jalib. AJo is a fold from UTG in most full ring games.... [/ QUOTE ] More PokerRoom stats (position 3 is UTG): <font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Total EV statistics for AJ Your query: * Pocket cards: AJ * Position: any * Players: any * Table limit: $10/20 Position Players 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 2 0.3 0.35 - - - - - - - - 3 0.49 0.33 0.55 - - - - - - - 4 0.27 0.36 0.21 0.49 - - - - - - 5 0.21 0.12 0.25 0.29 0.45 - - - - - 6 0.17 0.08 0.3 0.19 0.36 0.16 - - - - 7 0.18 0.16 0.2 0.06 0.27 0.08 0.15 - - - 8 0.17 0.12 0.05 0.1 0.03 0.31 0.31 0.3 - - 9 0.11 0.13 0.19 0.18 0.24 0.03 0.14 0.27 0.14 - 10 -0.07 0.08 0.1 0.2 0.24 0.16 0.12 0.25 0.24 0.21 The total average for AJ is 0.19 (regardless of table limit, position and number of players). </pre><hr />
|
|
#26
08-10-2005, 07:35 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Raising AJo UTG
The more I think of it the more I realise it doesnt matter all that much. Raising/folding/calling AJo UTG are all marginal plays (-/+ or not could probably be argued all day), on a decision you are going to make once every 1000 hands.
|
|
#27
08-10-2005, 08:23 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Raising AJo UTG
[ QUOTE ]
What does that mean, that the table texture is exactly the same at all 10-20 limit games and below? That is certainly not my experience. Maybe I'm just picking bad games, but the vast majority of the 10-20 and 15-30 games I play in (in NYC) are far tougher and more aggressive than the typical "SSHE game". I have to agree with Abdul Jalib. AJo is a fold from UTG in most full ring games, as are the baby pairs and some others that SSHE recommends playing. [/ QUOTE ] While I have played in the casinos in NY State, I will say I have never played in NYC, so I cannot comment on the games there, and will instead defer to your impression OR say that perhaps you should pick better tables, as you hinted at, but... While I have as of late started playing higher stakes live, a majority of the last year I have played at around the $10-$20 level. I have logged 100+ live sessions in the last year, so my sample size is not insignificant. I can't remember a table where I was like, Holy cow, I must ignore hands A-C that SSH recommends... I have found it, frankly, quite on the money. Your results and perception obviously vary, which is fine, but I think as a general rule of thumb, anyone walking into any casino anywhere at the $10-$20 and smaller stakes (and oftentimes $15-30, $20-$40, and above) can pretty much apply SSH verbatim and do well. Barron Vangor Toth BarronVangorToth.com
|
|
#28
08-10-2005, 09:19 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Raising AJo UTG
I'd rather raise it than call it on tight tables where you can sometimes get the blinds from UTG. One or two callers at most is not too bad. I don't like to fold it. I just checked PT though, and I'm only breaking even with it from UTG. Small sample size though.
Short hand it's an autoraise every time.
|
|
#29
08-10-2005, 09:45 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Raising AJo UTG
AJ is definately a situational hand as is KQ or the dreaded KJ. Early in a tournament setting I won't play any of these hands and if I have a large stack I will play these hands aggresively but with caution when it comes to reraises preflop. Money game I would bring it in for a raise UTG without a doubt. I really believe the hands mentioned above need to be played based on your table image. Are you very aggresive or a tight solid player. I myself am I tight player and won't put any thought into dumping those hands. These kinds of hands are debated by every author in texas holdem literature. TJ Cloutier even makes it a point in his book on tournament holdem, co-authored by Tom McEVOY, on how he and Tom all though both conservative players, dont agree on how to play several different hands.
|
|
#30
08-10-2005, 10:07 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Raising AJo UTG
My experience is for 2/4 and 3/6 with these hands.
I just had to answer this one. At 1st I thought folding or limping with AJo and KQo was correct. But limping SUCKS!!!! I limp then 4 people enter and your almost 1st to act. You gotta bet into all these callers that can have anything. If I get reraised preflop it is much easier for me to play my hand. But then I took about 50,000 hands and said F$*K it. I started raising with KQo and AJo UTG. What I found that because I play well I was able to make both those hands profitable. But I think it did something else. Because I raised with more hands UTG I got called more with my premiums and made more money from those hands. I think the poorer players saw that I was raising with AJ and KQ and started thinking Im loose and that I might be also raising with KT KJ AT... So they called more with more dominated hands. I think to play these hands you have to know how to play them and you have to really know the player reraising you if it comes down to that. I think raising preflop makes it easier to play. My 2 cents.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
