A6s in the BB. A few decisions requiring input.

[jskills]

Fold the flop.

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Borderline call? Backdoor nut flush and straight draws along with an overcard. Figured my outs to be slightly over 4 so I made the call.

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Your overcard outs are tainted by villan's preflop raise. You could very easily be up against a better ace. So you have a BD flush and BD straight draws, which is about 2 outs. Easy fold.

[Wyers]

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Fold the flop.

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Borderline call? Backdoor nut flush and straight draws along with an overcard. Figured my outs to be slightly over 4 so I made the call.

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Your overcard outs are tainted by villan's preflop raise. You could very easily be up against a better ace. So you have a BD flush and BD straight draws, which is about 2 outs. Easy fold.

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Preflop raiser folded the flop to MP2's raise. Based on my limited table time with MP2, he likely flopped top pair and was betting his J. I felt my Ace now had more value as it was less likely that MP2 was holding one.

Again, I'm not saying it was the strongest call. If UTG is placing this bet as opposed to MP2, or if the preflop raiser hadn't of folded, I'm not making this call.

[Wyers]

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Get the hell out of the flop. End of story.

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Nice post.

Elaborate.

[Crispy]

I am going to have to agree with some of the others. You probably saw the flop and thought runner runner straight or runner runner flush. However, you are way out of position on this one and there is almost no chance for a free card so I either check/fold or check/raise depending on whether you think the perflop raiser will shut down on the turn if he hasn't hit anything. Calling is out of the option, you won't get rid of any aces by doing this.

[jjacky]

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Get the hell out of the flop. End of story.

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Nice post.

Elaborate.

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at first i want to mention that i like it very much that you tell everybody that you want to see a reasoning. we could use more people who ask for that and less who just post something without reasons.

however, i do agree with the people who prefer to fold on the flop.
if a passive player bets into a crowd of people, he has probably a very good hand. top pair top kicker or better most of the time. that's why you have to discount your overcard outs very much. they are worth 1 out at best (i tend to give those outs even less credit since you have reversed implied outs). the backdoor straight draw is only for one card. you have to discount it either, to 0.5 outs at best. add 1.5 for the backdoor nut flush draw and you have something between 2 and 3 outs. not enough to call. to make the matter worse: if someone raises behind you, you have to pay even more for your weak draws or lay it down.

[krimson]

Biggest problem with the flop call is your position. Let's assume like a previous poster mentioned you have 3 outs for the backdoor draws and 1 out for an ace... aproximately. This gives you sufficient odds to call but your position sucks.

1. It wouldn't be out of the question for UTG+1 to c/r this hand and you end up putting 2 sb's in with garbage

2. Even if your hand improves on the turn you lack position to make a good play on it (example: you improved and got suckered in for 2 bb's on an OESD).

Then the icing on the cake. You hit your hand after all these poor calls and check the river? Given the call on the turn you are treating your hand as an OESD, which means you are giving credit to the 9's as an out. You hit your 9 on the river and then check it through? If your afraid of a 9 then you shouldn't have called the turn.

[Wyers]

Thanks to those who replied with some helpful advice regarding this hand. It was an interesting one for me because there were a couple of situations where I routinely struggle.

This is a flop that I routinely fold. However I think I am often folding "longshot" but potentially profitable hands when the pots are fairly large because I'm underestimating (or outright missing) some of the less obvious outs.

In this case, I overestimated estimated my outs to be approx. 4, when I fact they were closer to 2.5 or 3. So I made an ill advised call out of position.

<font color="black"> EDIT: I'm still not sold on whether this was or was not a good call. However, for the present time, I will continue to make similar plays. While this one may have been close, I'm certain there are many times when the decision to call was correct but I folded anyhow - due to missing some of the more subtle outs.

In the meantime, it may cost me a few bets while I figure this out but the alternative is that I keep missing these opportunities. So I will play the hands, review and continue to fine tune.</font>


I think the most serious mistake was not betting the river. I hung in there with a less than marginal hand only to actually have the river hit me - then allowed it to be checked around. Seems kind of silly in hindsight. I wish I could say this was the only time I've made this mistake but I know I miss these value bets too often.

Anyhow...thanks again for the input...

[Piiop]

Not sure what's going on here, but I don't see anything wrong with calling the flop. He's getting 11.5:1. He has 1.5 outs for BD nut flush, 1.5 outs for BD no gap str8, and 3 A outs discounted however much you feel like it. Can someone explain why they would fold???

[Piiop]

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Calling the flop was wrong. With 2 backdoors and no pair you can't call. Its even in the book. If someone raised before the flop your Ace is probably no good. Even if they didnt your kicker sucks. Only way you call here is with a pair and a backdoor or 2. Even just a pair your getting 10:1 for 2 pair.

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Why can't he call??? How many outs do you give him for his backdoor draws? What book is this in? The preflop raiser FOLDED the flop. He's getting 11.5:1.

[Piiop]

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1. It wouldn't be out of the question for UTG+1 to c/r this hand and you end up putting 2 sb's in with garbage

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This is a silly reason not to call. It's not likely UTG+1 will check-raise.

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2. Even if your hand improves on the turn you lack position to make a good play on it (example: you improved and got suckered in for 2 bb's on an OESD).

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Wtf does this mean?? What is the good play that he's supposed to be making on this hand? He improves to an OESD and so he correctly calls the bets with more than correct odds. He didn't get "suckered in" to anything.