Fighting the SuperLAG: A Checkup

[RunDownHouse]

I just wanted to check my thoughts on this, because I'm not very good at poker and I think this is the first player I've run acrose like this.

Villian is a multitabling LAG with stats of 40/34/2.79, with FTR aggro of 2.83/4/2.67 over about 1500 hands. ATSB is about 57%, FSB is 40%, FBB is about 25%. As for table reads, villian is perfectly happy to cap the flop against the preflop aggressor with as little as A-high plus a draw and others in the hand. A c/r seems to mean he's trying to milk money out of people with two pair or better on the big streets; I've never seen him c/r the flop, preferring to fire away. Generally a flop check means either set or better or he wants to fold ASAP. He rarely flat calls to defend his BB, and never from the SB. Its almost always a 3bet versus a steal, and then its off to the races HU firing and raising at nearly every chance with any sort of showdownable hand. He's not a complete idiot, because he can sometimes find a fold if the board is particularly bad for his low pair, and he's somewhat discerning pf. But he makes pretty bizarre choices sometimes. EX: Villian raises with A7o, both blinds call, Flop is JJx. Checked around on both the flop and turn. River is a blank, SB checks, BB bets, Villian raises, SB 3bets, BB folds, villian calls.

Thanks if you amde it through all of that. My questions:
How do you steal/defend against this guy? Defending I'd guess pound him pf with all big aces, all broadways, most pairs, and then play it from there, being more inclined to passivity so I don't get bluffed out of pots. But stealing? His numbers indicate he's playing a ton of hands from the blinds, which means I should really be able to open up my steal range. But he's also 3betting almost all of those hands, so its impossible to know where I'm at postflop. Just let him fire away with A-high and get to showdown?

I ended up just finding another table he was on and sitting to his left, since I felt more comfortable being in position mostly and defending rather than stealing (since my steals were getting eaten alive, for the most part). But I'd like to hear your thoughts, as well as any other discussion about this type of player.

[Lash]

My experience has been that the heart of any successful lag / semi-lags game is being able to put you on a more defined range of hands than you are capable of putting him on. This allows him to extract marginal value in spots that you can’t, and make more informed lay downs in spots where you tend to call. The best defense is to sit back and let him drive, picking your spots to fight back with marginal holdings very carefully.

[naphand]

I am extremnely disappointed this post has not had more of a response. This is something that comes up from time-to-time here, but it is such an interesting question it certainly deserves plenty of exposure.

First of all RDH, if you are not familiar with Peter_Rus and his post on the _language of the LAG_ (in the archives now), which was a discussion mostly between Peter and myself on playing LAGs and variance.

Look here.

I want to discuss this more, but am a bit busy now but will say this:

I agree that LAGs can be pretty good at putting you on hands you can be pushed off AND where they have the advantage. Widening your steal range helps somewhat, but you need a very strong post-flop game to compete AND be ready for a lot of variance. Also, you can try to use their aggression and confuse them a little by using _dare I say it_ some PF completes/limps (with big hands and sooteds depending on the situations/previous hands). Obviously you can limp/3-bet hands this way. Similar for the Flop.

You seem to have a reasonable handle on his game, it should not be too hard to develop a strategy against it. You then need to consider how to make it hard for HIM to read/play you. You have lots of options and playing this kind of player can be very interesting (unless you are running bad, then it is just HELL) and extremely profitable, particularly if you can regularly embroil a calling station-type player in such exchanges. An extra caller can make for some huge pots.

Against these kinds of players, I like to tighten up more than usual simply because it's more difficult to play against a wide range of hands. I would think that Villian would pay off big if you made a strong hand by capping preflop, flop, turn, river with you. Personally, I would just wait for those situations. It keeps variance lower.

[spydog]

Preflop with position:

If he's 3-betting any hand that he's defending, and he's defending a lot, then tighten your stealing standards to Ax and pocket pairs. Cap those when he 3-bets. Call down most of these hands and raise a lot of rivers when you have top pair or better (assuming he fires relentlessly). He needs to know that you never fold on the flop/turn and that his resteals are going to be very expensive. Also, I would actually openlimp with hands like suited broadways that don't contain aces, and maybe some suited connectors down to 98s/T8s, as well as the occasional AK/KK/AA/QQ type hand. Once you have shown that you can mix it up, he will be less likely to try and tangle with you.

Preflop out of position:

I would just call anything reasonable and checkraise any flop that hits me. I wouldn't 3-bet any hand, even your strong ones. If you just call everything, then he can't put you on hand ranges. If you check-raise the flop and he 3-bets, then just call him down unless you improve. If he's 3-betting pretty liberally then call his 3-bets and check-raise any turn where you have top pair or better. Otherwise, just call down and make notes as to whether he checks behind on rivers with Ace hi because you can start folding to his river bet sometimes if you are holding 3rd or 4th pair.

[RunDownHouse]

Wow, thanks a ton for that link, Naphand. A couple excerpts:
[ QUOTE ]
You must be a LAG against LAG's to make more profit though you must have large bankroll and prepare for big swings.

[/ QUOTE ]
There was a hand last night where I open-raised 55 on the button, SuperLAG 3bet from the BB, I capped. The flop came something like 468 and he led, I raised, he 3bet, and I called. The turn came Q he led, I called, river A, he led, I folded [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] After that hand I sat back and told myself not to try to outlag the lag. But at the same time I was thinking I had to widen my stealing and defend ranges, which, to some extent, is LAGging it up. So I'll have to do some more thinking about that.

I really thought this part was excellent, so I'll quote the whole thing:
[ QUOTE ]
One dialog of LAG's can looks like:

Flop

Bet- i have nothing and try to check if you have anything
Raise- i have any pair or any kind of draw
3-bet-i have middle pair or strong draw
Cap- i want to buy free card on turn with my weak draw/i have middle pair/good kicker

Turn after capped flop

Bet- i try to check if you wanted to buy a card with your cap and i have something im still think is good
Raise-i have TPGK+ or very strong draw or overpair(str8+flush for eg)
3bet- I have TPTK or overpair or 2 pairs+
Cap - I have top 2 pairs+

River
Bet - I have top 2 pairs+
Raise- I have set+
3-bet- I have nearly nuts
Cap - I have nuts

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll have to look through the rest of the thread when I have some real time to dig in.

As for other suggestions, it really hand't occured to me to limp on the button with stuff like T9s, since I figured showing any weakness to this guy would let him outplay me. But as aggressive and unreadable as he is, he's still bad postflop, just a different sort of bad. Maybe I should try to outplay him there since pf is relatively meaningless as far as hand strength goes.

Thanks for the responses.

[naphand]

NP. Just one of the benefits of being an old-timer on these boards.

Trust me when I say there is a TON of valuable information in the archives. Peter_rus is one poster you should be thoroughly researching if you want to really take on LAGs - he was the doyen of that game. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
As for other suggestions, it really hand't occured to me to limp on the button with stuff like T9s, since I figured showing any weakness to this guy would let him outplay me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feigning weakness... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Remember he is 3-betting a lot of these hands as well AND if you mix is up with limp/3-betting your power hands he is going to struggle to put you on anything.

Incidentally, I remember Peter_rus talking (not sure if it was the same thread) about how these superLAGs really hate someone else playing back at them (effectively). He mentioned that very often they would simply leave the table once he got to grips with them. They may teeter permanently on the brink of tilt and if you can stay in control and hurt them they will blow off their stack.

[kapw7]

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(How to play back the TAGs that play back at you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )