Are these hand rankings right?

[ianlippert]

Acording to sklansky JTs, QJs, KJs, ATs are better than AQo. I found this really surprising. Is this true?

This site http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/mummert/poker/ did more computer simulations testing sklanskys rankings, and they found it came out more like

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs
TT, AQs, AJs, AK, KQs
ATs, KJs, AQ, 99, QJs, KTs
88, QTs, A9s, AJ, JTs, KQ, A8s, AT

I'm just trying to figure out whats the lower limit to raise UTG?

[BoxLiquid]

the computer simulations are probably more accurate but I bet post-flop play is a lot more critical. Pocket aces can be money losers in multi-way pots especially if you don't know how to protect it. They can get cracked pretty easy. and EVERYONE really hates it when their beautiful pocket aces get cracked lol.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
Acording to sklansky JTs, QJs, KJs, ATs are better than AQo. I found this really surprising. Is this true?

This site http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/mummert/poker/ did more computer simulations testing sklanskys rankings, and they found it came out more like

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs
TT, AQs, AJs, AK, KQs
ATs, KJs, AQ, 99, QJs, KTs
88, QTs, A9s, AJ, JTs, KQ, A8s, AT

I'm just trying to figure out whats the lower limit to raise UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those hand rankings you link have been discussed ad nauseum. Do a search. In fact, I believe that Mason Malmuth has critiqued them. Look for his posts on the matter.

As for raising UTG (I'm assuming limit holdem here), it depends on many factors -

how many players at the table
what type of game is it (tough & tight, ram and jam, etc)
what your image is relative to the table
whether the blinds defend, etc.

Your cards are just one facet of an entire situation

[MikeL]

Hand rankings depend on many factors:

1) Game type (which you don't mention but I assume is LIMIT). Limit, Pot-limit, No-limit.

2) Table looseness. E.g. Loose v. Tight.

3) Table aggression. E.g. Aggressive v. Passive.

4) Opposition post flop skill.

5) Your post flop skill.

6) For pot and no limit, stack sizes.

All of these factors, and probably others, account for which subset of hands should be played, in which positions and with what aggression.

In addition, there is really at least two factors to measure with regards to hand quality, power and profit. Some hands, when pushed all-in against any other random hand, will be less powerful than others, but when allowed to limp in might become far more profitable than others. As an example, 55 is not all that powerful against a full table of other players (and you might not want to call an all-in with it), but if you are allowed to see a flop for cheap, you could spike another 5 for a very profitable hand. When you miss the flop, folding is not difficult.

This is one of the major pitfalls with Skalansky and Malmuth's HEFAP. By declaring "Hand Groups," S/M have misled alot of newbies into thinking that these hand groups are written in concreat for all limit games. This is clearly not true. Don't get me wrong, it is a good book, but very deceiving when it comes to which hands to play. S/M's book is for High-Stakes Limit, not low or mid (of which I would rather have Lee Jones' or Gary Carson's book). There is nothing more desirable for me to see is someone sitting down at a very loose limit table playing their memorized Sklansky hand groups. Then watching them berate the rest of the table for playing "crap" hands, like Axs, out of position while their AA/KK get cracked.

Long story short is hand values change with other conditions. Until you learn how to adjust to table conditions, try to find tables that match the hands you play.

Regards,
Mike L.

[Siegmund]

[ QUOTE ]

This is one of the major pitfalls with Skalansky and Malmuth's HEFAP. By declaring "Hand Groups," S/M have misled alot of newbies into thinking that these hand groups are written in concreat for all limit games. This is clearly not true. Don't get me wrong, it is a good book, but very deceiving when it comes to which hands to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can say that again!

I played 25-cent tables by the seat of my pants for a month and won handily... borrow HEPFAP from a friend, tried to "improve" my game with some adjustments to my openings and by betting out with draws (without understanding when or why to do this)... started losing heavily for a month... took a month off, started over with the basics, was able to move up quickly. A year later I could go back to S&M and know what they were trying to say. Having HEPFAP be my first poker book was liking handing a machine gun to someone who's never handled a 22 before.