ten dumbest poker players - Page 2

zaxx19 · #11 01-11-2005, 10:56 PM

Well lets see his first book for Harper Collins was on the best seller list for 19 months or something...what do you think JUST HIS ADVANCE WAS FOR THE 2ND BOOK WAS??

Love him or hate him he is making a substantial amount of money outside of poker playing lately. And by substantial I mean well over 1 million dollars......

Howard Treesong · #12 01-11-2005, 11:19 PM

$1,000,000 liquid in a bank is actually quite a large amount. I have no idea if Phil has that or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't. His '04 shows $96K in tournament winnings. Against that, I suspect he played the great majority (if not all) of the WSOP events and perhaps another dozen $10K events. The WSOP buyins alone are almost $95K, assuming only one buy for the 2-7 rebuy event. Using these conservative assumptions and plugging in $30K for expenses, he's probably $150K in the hole in tournaments in '04, assuming he's playing his own money and assuming he's breakeven in cash games. That's a pretty big number to fade to still have a million in easy liquidity. His book income exists, but that's not likely a big number -- unless you're of Steven King's ilk, book writing is not all that profitable. His stake in UB is certainly an open question and may pay dividends, but at least some of that is likely locked up as equity.

His gross from prior years (e.g. 977K in tourney winnings from '03) is not a net. Take off tourney buys (another $150K) and pay tax on the rest, and that $977K number drops all the way down around $400K. Remember, he's paying the absurdly high California state rate in addition the federal freight.

Using this gross speculation, it wouldn't shock me if he had nowhere near that number in readily liquid assets.

On the deeper point, Hellmuth is a smart guy. He's not nearly as precise as or analytical as many others in the poker world (like our man Sklansky), and he is occasionally quite wrong (e.g. AK versus AKs) but he is very very perceptive and very quick on his feet. And yes, I've played with him, probably a dozen times. Not as much as others here, to be sure, but more than enough to be comfortable saying that anyone who thinks Hellmuth is stupid is seriously misguided.

Beavis68 · #13 01-11-2005, 11:31 PM

I believe that doyle is quite smart.

Phil I wonder about.....

TJ Cloutier, I love him and his books but I question his logic on some things....

Tom McEvoy, don't love him, like his writing, but again, question his logic and depth of understading.

Daniel N. I think he is fairly bright, but not on the level of some of the best

I know that David respects Gus, but........

Gary Carson - DOH!

Ben Afleck

Of course, none of these guys are anyewhere near the dumbest, just "not in the top ten"

TPL · #14 01-12-2005, 12:11 AM

Didn't we already have this thread?

I thought it was settled - ME! I am the dumbest player in poker!

TPL

zaxx19 · #15 01-12-2005, 12:12 AM

Wait isnt his wife like an MD in Palo Alto...doesnt he live in Palo Alto...you guys understand this is one of the MOST wealthy areas in the nation correct?? \

Whether its liquid? pr not is pure semantics. His house alone in Palo Alto is probably worth...I suspect like 600K+.

If you guys hate him to such a degree you want to pretend he is broke be my guest. I m just saying all the evidence points to him being very financially secure of late.

Justin A · #16 01-12-2005, 12:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
TJ Cloutier, I love him and his books but I question his logic on some things....

[/ QUOTE ]

You love his books? Some of the stuff in there is mind-boggling. Like unsuited connectors are better than suited connectors in limit hold'em because of all the money you'll lose when you go up against a higher flush.

Justin A

Gallopin Gael · #17 01-12-2005, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
assuming he's playing his own money

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's a pretty big assumption.

I remember reading somewhere that Raymer ended up getting a deal with PS after the Series and that they're picking up the tab for him to play in certain events. Why wouldn't UB do this for Phil? Wouldn't it be smarter to get someone else to pony up the cash? Isn't it worth it to UB to have their hat seen by everyone watching Phil cry about how unlucky he is?

I do agree with your ultimate point (phil is smarter than people give him credit for), but I would be shocked to find out that he pays his way into a significant number of events.

Beavis68 · #18 01-12-2005, 01:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Whether its liquid? pr not is pure semantics. His house alone in Palo Alto is probably worth...I suspect like 600K+.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try adding one more zero, you can't buy an outhouse for 600K.

On my best day I still wish I was Phil Hellmuth, as pathetic as he is.

Beavis68 · #19 01-12-2005, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TJ Cloutier, I love him and his books but I question his logic on some things....

[/ QUOTE ]

You love his books? Some of the stuff in there is mind-boggling. Like unsuited connectors are better than suited connectors in limit hold'em because of all the money you'll lose when you go up against a higher flush.

Justin A

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what I mean by his logic on somethings. I didn't say they are poker bibles, or that he writes words to live by. I like the style and the stores.... sorry. To me I would always rather read a Cloutier book than a Sklansky book.

Kind of like I would rather read Grisham than Socrates.....or something like that.

Howard Treesong · #20 01-12-2005, 01:35 AM

Yes, I know the area. And yes, I'm more than a little familiar with real estate prices out here in this part of the country. In this context, the liquidity of assets is far from semantic. One represents a readily available poker bankroll. The other represents a place to live -- and most of us wouldn't take out a second mortgage on our home and play poker on it. That wouldn't occur in Family Treesong, for example. I suppose it might in Hellmuthland.

I was surprised that Home Gain says the median home price in Palo Alto is (just) $487K. I would have thought it was materially more than that. Having never seen Phil's house, I have no idea what it's worth. Having seen his taste in $1800 Versace uglitudes that pass as shirts, however, I'm guessing his house is nicer than the average.

For the record, I don't hate Phil. In truth, I kinda like the guy personally. Did my post suggest otherwise? I intended to suggest that it might be more difficult to have a million in the bank than some people think, even for a guy (like Phil) who has gross poker revenues north of a million in the last two years, and a lifetime tourney earn north of four million.

As for "all the evidence," what exactly do you mean?