Hit and Run vs. Taking Command vs. Trapping

[Shaman]

I made the following post in the small stakes nolimit HE forum:

"Almost every single session of 1-2 (100 or 200 max) I double/triple up very easily using loose aggressive play with small pre-flop raises that build pots which I then steal on the flop. Sometimes I would hit too and get paid off. It takes me less than two hours to double or triple up.

The problem is that almost every time this happens ( which is almost literally every time!) I end up giving back everything that I have accumulated. It works like clock work. I accumulate Doyle Brunson-style then it all disappears. Should I do a hit and run each time I've accumulated? Or should I just tighten up after I'm up?"

The responses I got for this post was that I should either set a stop-win in which I would quit the table and move to another table (and do the Doyle Brunson thing all over again) OR that once I have accumulated I should then tighten up to take advantage of my loose image for trapping purposes.

Question: Which of these two actions would create more money for me? Remember, I made twice the buy-in in less than two hours at this point. Can I make more if I stayed at the same table but tightened up?

How about if I just stayed and bullied the table Paul Philips (at the Mirage 2-5)- style? BTW, this last option was what I have been attempting to do.

So, which of the three options is best? Is there a fourth or fifth option that I may be blind to?

[cero_z]

Hi Shaman,

I'll humor you. What you should be asking yourself is, "Why am I losing my big stack?" I'll take a guess: you don't play that well in general, and specifically, you continue to take big risks after your opponents have observed your strategy and adjusted. If this likely scenario is what's happening to you, then a short-term answer is quitting after a short TIME at the table--regardless of whether you're up or down.

But sadly, I doubt this will work for you. I suspect that what's actually happening at these tables is that you're making one bad play after another, and eventually it costs you your whole stack. In your mind, the bluffs you get away with and the junk hands that hit hard are evidence of your genius play, and the hands where you bust yourself are the mistakes. In reality, your plays "work every time but once." It could cost you your whole stack the first time you do it, or the second time, but your opponents are content to wait you out until they're sure they're ahead, and get you on the 5th mistake or so. The problem with NL (for you) is that whichever time they get you, they'll get most or all of your stack.

The long-term solution to your problem is to get better at poker. You sound like you may have a decent start: rather than playing nitty, conservative poker at small limits, you are showing some heart, and taking advantage of your very weak opponents' numerous faults. Now you need to temper your heart with some brains, and learn to extricate yourself from certain trap situations that will routinely cost you all your chips. This is way harder than learning how to raise pre-flop, then auto-bet the flop. There are too many examples to note here, but one thing you might consider is not playing 2-gappers like Q8. With this hand, you may find yourself with the 2nd nut straight against the nuts (KQ) more often than you'd think possible.

You may think I sound very presumptuous in my assessment of you, a player I've never met. But trust me, I've met you. Actually, I've been you. And some days, I still am you.

[Shaman]

Thanks for the feedback cero_z. Here are some hands that I have posted in the past 2 or 3 weeks. Can you please point out my leaks and what to do about them?

Hand 1:

"1-2 blind NL holdem. I had been raising to 4 or 6 almost every hand pre-flop at the time this hand came about. Nobody ever challenged me by going over the top. I had built up my stack from a low of 40 to where it was by stealing on the flop 2 times out of 3.

I'm on the CO with $104 and 5 limp to me in this tight-passive game. I have 78o and raise to 6 and everyone (including the blinds) calls. Flop comes 692 with two diamonds. Everyone checks to me and I bet 35. Everyone folds to an early position player who checkraises me 35 more. The rest fold. Heads up. Should I: Fold? Call? or Raise all-in? Results later."

I moved in.

Hand 2:


"I had ran up my 100 into 350 over 4 hours of play. My image has been loose-aggressive as I stole a lot of flops and made a lot of small pre-flop raises almost from any position.

The hand: Six players call the 2 dollar big blind when I see a K8o on the button. Knowing that the SB and BB are tight-passive, I call. SB calls then BB raises 5 more to 7 dollars. Everyone except two call.

Flop comes K83 two flush. Everyone checks to me and I bet 40. Everyone folds except the player seated four to my right.

Turn comes 9 offsuit. At this point, I have about 300. My lone opponent moves all in for $210. What should I do at this point?

This post concerns only what I should do on the turn. Call or fold?"

Results: I called.

[youngin20]

1st hand, I am not sure how much is in the pot, was if 5 people including the blinds? otherwise, you are betting 35 with an open ended straight draw into 7 people. someone hit. and your raise of the other guy is only another 35 more...there is no way you are ahead....and he is getting amazing pot odds to call...something like 4 to 1 i think.... so you have no fold equity. I say you have to call his raise, and probably call his putting you all in on the turn....i think. i just think you put yourself in a shitty position. there were way too many people in the pot to semibluff it, so fold equity is out. basically you are crapshooting from behind here

hand 2
calling with 2 pair...hrm...what could he have? you could have 2 outs. (K9, or a set, or you could be ahead vs. AA, whic is pretty much impossible given how he played it.) You might have picked off AK here, but he still has 5 outs, you are up against a set and should lay it down, please post pot sizes so i dont have to add that sh!t up. I think he is overbetting the pot....so....i lean towards folding here. You can find a better spot with your money.

[Shaun]

You played those two hands fine. If you are trying to take control of the table then the straight draw is the classic Doyle Brunson example of gambling with slightly the worst of it sometimes so that you remain in control. Once you get to that point in the hand you want to see the turn. A call might have been better, but that is not the image you want to portray so move in and gamble.

As for the K8 I'd likely call too. You can't be afraid of the nuts when someone bets like that and there is no way he puts you on K8. You have to call. If he has K9 or a set, unlucky.

If I had 100 I might gamble with the 78, for example, but if I had 300 and my opponent had 250, I would not push the flop with only a straight draw. Your goal is to get the big stack- so once you get it, you need to defend it and not get money in when you know you have the worst of it. You can still apply pressure but you need to be a little more selective, because your opponents only have to be right once, whereas you have to be right all the time.

[Shaman]

1st hand: There was some freecard equity too.

[d1sterbd]

Hand 1. I am assuming your $35 bet is a pot size bet. With your image, I would not make that bet against that many opponents, it gets too expensive to keep making that play when your image is that of a loose aggressive player. Take a free card.

Would this player min raise you with a flush draw? Would he fold a flush draw and two overs if you go all in here? You can pick a better spot to get your money in than this. Your straight may not even be good if you hit it.

With the initial pot, your bet and his raise, there is about $140 in the pot and he only has to call your $40 reraise. I don't think your opponent can fold so I wouldn't count on that either.

-d1sterbd

[cero_z]

Hi Shaman,

You played both hands reasonably, but I would've taken a different route on hand #1, and I think it illustrates where you can take your style.

You're really asking for it by making that raise pre-flop into all those limpers. The table must've been tremendously passive to make that a good play (I don't play in these games, so I don't know). I think you have a better chance of stealing on the flop if you don't tickle it with that raise. It's already a big pot before you raise, and your strategy should be to steal the small pots, and have the goods in the big pots .

When everyone called, and then checked to you, I would've definitely checked. Again, though, it could be that the table was so weak, there was a decent chance for you to win right there. If I did that in the 1K, I would always get raised on that semi-coordinated, no-high-card board. The beauty of taking the free card is that if they're trapping you with a set, and you make the straight on the turn, you'll stack them in any size game, because they want to get you so bad, they've finally got a good hand, and they won't have the discipline to get away from it.

But as you played it, I say he has a nice big hand, and you have zero fold equity. But, you're getting 4 to 1 immediate odds, with 30 bucks left. You have to call on the turn if a blank hits, but not if the board pairs, so I wouldn't push. I'd call, and fold if the board paired on the turn; otherwise call. It's not a huge mistake if you wrongly fold getting 7 to 1 on the turn as a 5 to 1 dog.

Shaun's point about pushing for metagame purposes is a good one (and it can't be very wrong if it's wrong at all), but bankroll preservation may be a more important issue for you; remember that Paul Phillips has a pretty nice roll.

Hand #2 sucks, but you must call. He probably hit K9, but maybe he's countering your semi-bluff-looking bet by pushing a blank turn with just a King. Do people think that much at this level? Because his bet doesn't make much sense, and he doesn't give you credit for much, call.

You seem like you're doing OK. Good luck.

[Shaman]

Thanks to you. And thanks to the other posters as well. I'll keep on learning. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Shoog]

Hi,
Reading the description of your play and the couple of hands you've posted, I can't help but to think about "giving up the lead", which is a bridge concept I first learned from my father.

I'm not a great bridge player or as good a hold'm player as many posters here, but I am well read and have logged a good amount of hours at the tables and in front of the screens. You might benefit from giving up the lead or downshifting 20 pct or 30 pct of the time and let someone else lead, especially if you have the nuts or a strong hand. Doyle's style is a good tool but a carpenter doesn't just need a hammer he needs a saw, a chisel and many other instruments, if you'll forgive the crude analogy.

You are my bread and butter, at least the way you describe yourself. You are in lots of pots and raising with less than optimum hands. You called a tight BB raise with a K8 with at least two other people in the pot. Sure you hit a near perfect flop for your hole cards, but this should send up a red flag in your mind. A tight player raises in early position, knowing that a madman sits on the button and other callers. I'm planning to put my unborn child through college on players just like you.

You probably don't have to play as aggressive as much as you think to preserve you strong table image and still make money.
As you paint your play, I and probably many other players on the table would key off you. We sit back and wait for strong starters. Eventually we hit and you don't and you bet it up for us when we play weak. We call until we feel the pot is big enough to force you to call the hammer that we drop on the river. Players like that are some of the most profitable situations I have found.

You want to earn respect from your opponents not have them think of you as their next meal by over bullying, Doyle makes this point. It's not hard to tell when someone is just aggressive and when someone is in too many pots and aggressive.

Superaggressive styles by players without the experience and skills to pull them off are sitting ducks for traps.
Playing aggressive is a lot harder than people think -- you must be flawless in knowing when to give it up if you suspect you're beat. And as you say you are coming out busted.

You should also consider that after sitting for a couple of hours, your play and judgment are probably deteriorating from fatigue, making you vulnerable.
hope it helps. chrs
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