How to play 88 UTG at final table ?

[gergery]

This has happened to me twice now...

Final table of Party $30 MTT. Blinds 150-300, about 8 left. I have around 3500 in about 4th spot and get 88 UTG. I raise to 900 and get put all in by button who has roughly my size stack. My read on them is good player, typical of final table. SB/BB fold.

I folded both times. How do you play it?

The second time, my o said he had AJs, and 3 players were ~1000 in chips or less. If you think he did, do you take the coinflip plus dead money for good EV or wait to get chips in first and let the shortstacks to run into trouble?

If they blinds are 200-400 or 250-500 do you play it different?

--Greg

[MLG]

I think you played it well. I like raising first in, and I like tossing to the reraise. If the blinds are bigger I'm just going to move in initially instead of raise, but with more than 10x here I think you're in good shape with the raise fold.

[M.B.E.]

First, a lot depends on the payout structure. There are eight players remaining and three have larger stacks than you. Notice that if you tighten up, you have a really good chance of outlasting three or more other players, guaranteeing you fifth place money minimum. On the other hand, if you choose to play medium-good hands like 88 out of position, you increase the probability of your finishing in seventh or eighth place.

That's why you have to look at the payout structure. If the difference between fifth- and eighth-place money is a significant fraction of the total remaining prize pool, then I'd be inclined to fold 88 UTG eight-handed. On the other hand, if there were only a small difference between fifth- and eighth-place money (and then presumably a big jump for second- and first-place money), I'd be more inclined to play the 88.

When I make the final table of an online MTT with typical payout structure, usually I tighten up and watch the other players knock each other out. I believe that is the move with highest $EV.

A couple of other comments on your 88 hand. Blinds were 150-300 with no ante, and your stack was 3500. You really should not openraise to 900 with a medium pocket pair, because it's too much of your stack. If you get called, then what kind of flop are you hoping for?

If the tournament were played with antes at this level, there would be something like 850 already in the pot, and you could consider pushing in for 3500 UTG with 88. But with only 450 in the pot, moving in for 3500 is not a good play because there are seven players still to act: too much risk for too little reward.

You can limp here for 300 if you think there's a decent chance that nobody will raise behind you. But generally, assuming a typical payout structure for an online MTT and typical final-table opponents (i.e. aggressive), I would fold 88 UTG with eight players remaining when my stack is about 12 times the big blind.

[davidross]

I play itg the same way you did. If I'm willing to play it for all my chips, I'll push in with them right away.

With a BB of 500 I think I just push in pre-flop.

You gotta love a guy willing to play for it all with AJ at the end. Be patient, and when you have AK he'll call you too.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

You're in a tough spot. I would call the reraise pretty often, and seldom be happy about it.

This is one of the reasons I like to make a habit of under-raising by a bit. In this spot, I'll often raise to T800 instead of T900. I steal the blinds almost as often, and when I'm forced to fold to a reraise, I lose less. Everytime I'm at a table, I'm trying to gauge what the cheapest raise is that can still steal the blinds (and against which big blind players). Also pay close attention to the stack size of the big blind. It may be that either amount, 800 or 900, will commit him to the pot. So, why not go for T800 instead if you're going to fold to the reraise?

Also, it's a good idea to decide in advance how likely you are to fold to a reraise. Then figure out how likely it is that you will get reraised. Sometimes, the combination of the two makes it clear you should just fold preflop, or raise all-in so they know they can't make a move at you.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[gergery]

Thanks guys, appreciate the help. This confirms for me that this actually is a somewhat difficult spot, and gives me a few things to think about.

FYI, These were Party 3-table tourneys with very flat structure (5th gets 3x entry of $90 every place increase is another $45. I went on to win one of them, and got to 6th easily in the other before a stupid mistake took me out, so I was definitely willing (and correct, i think) to fold both. But I will bet slightly less in the future when doing this.